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Messages - Dan Fienen

#1
Quote from: Charles Austin on July 17, 2024, 10:07:45 AMNeither politicians nor voters can ask for, or expect that Catholic social, teaching, or portions of it, become the law of the land.
Unless, that is, majority of our citizen voters want that to happen.
This is why your "side" is losing on the issue of abortion. The majority of the American public wants relatively easy access to abortion. The majority of the American public does not believe that once a sperm hits an egg you have a human being.
You think we are wrong about this, and therein lies the biological and theological questions and disputes.
BTW - ditto for anything you want to call Protestant "social teaching."
Members of town councils, state representatives, members of Congress should vote for what they think is best for their regional and the country, not just for what their priest, rabbi or minister says.
200 years ago the big issue was slavery, and the ones who wanted to impose their often religious beliefs about abolition had to realize that they were losing. Especially in some parts of the country, the majority of thepublic wanted, demanded, relatively easy access to the labor supplied  slaves and the general economic benefits of slave labor. The majority of the American public did not belief that Blacks were equally human with whites,or had righte equal to whites that whites needed to respect. The majority held that they had a Constitutional right to command slaves, and have run away slaves returned to them. Members of town councils, state representatives, members of Congres voted for what they thought best for their regions and country, not just what their minister said.. (But many ministers agreed with the continuation of slavery.) Or what meddling abolitionists might say, or the upstart lawyer from Illinois.
#2
Your Turn / Re: Life Isn't Fair
Yesterday at 05:15:39 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on Yesterday at 05:07:19 PMWhen we look at the rest of nature, it seems that most of God's creatures are born with an instinct to reproduce, but do they know that what they are doing is creating offsprings or just satisfying some inner desire for pleasure? When a dog has "humped" my leg, I tend to think that he is not thinking about reproduction. Among humans, I have theorized, that the desire is not so much about reproduction, but pleasure.
Perhaps. It is most likely a part of the whole developmental process. I know that I am not nearly knowledgeable enough about child development to make an informed comment about sexual orientation develops. What I do know suggests that it is likely complex, and each child develops in his or her own way. Development, I presume, is complex enough that to take any one factor and say "This determines it" is probably far too simplistic.

So no, I am not saying that sexual orientation is simply a choice and that the Christian answer to homosexual orientation could or should be to simply tell the people to choose differently or choose better. 
#3
PB Eaton makes some good points. I agree that from what little that I've read of Christian Nationalism, Lutherans would not count as exactly Christian according to them. I agree that Christian Nationalism is a perversion of both Christianity and American Nationalism. (And I agree that the Louisiana 10 Commandment in Classrooms mandate is ill-advised if not unconstitutional.)

The other side are those who would want to banish Christianity and likely all religion from public life. We live in a pluralistic society where allowing people to not only freely practice their religion but to live out their religion in their daily and public lives can end up in having to mediate disputes where one person's religious practice rubs up against someone else's religious or nonreligious practice. My religious arm swinging is likely at times to intersect with someone else's nose. We need to cooperate and accommodate each other to allow me to swing my arms and for the other to keep their nose approximately where they want it.
#4
Your Turn / Re: Life Isn't Fair
Yesterday at 04:47:49 PM
Quote from: John_Hannah on Yesterday at 04:41:49 PMShowing my ignorance. What is SSA and HSA?
I took SomeoneWrites to mean Same Sex Attraction by the use of the acronym SSA. I expanded that use to us HSA to mean Hetero Sexual Attraction.
#5
Your Turn / Re: Life Isn't Fair
Yesterday at 04:45:45 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on Yesterday at 04:35:08 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on Yesterday at 03:34:45 PM
Quote from: John Mundinger on Yesterday at 03:08:00 PM
Quote from: RDPreus on Yesterday at 10:38:24 AMBut I do not call Black people n****rs or Italian people Wops.  That's racist and I am not a racist.

You may not be a racist.  But, if you insist on referring to homosexuals as sodomites, don't be surprised if others refer to you as a homophobe.

Quote from: RDPreus on Yesterday at 10:38:24 AMWhat you fail to understand is that homosexual activity is sinful and disgusting.  It should not be respected.  It is wicked.

You fail to understand that homosexuals are born homosexual.  You also are born with a corrupted version of the image in which you are created.  You also are guilty of sinful and disgusting behavior.




You fail to understand that the assertion that homosexuals are born homosexual is unproven. The etiology of homosexuality (and sexual orientation, not to mention gender identity in general) is complex and not firmly established. There is not even complete agreement within the homosexual community. Seems to me likely that the etiology of homosexual orientation is a complex combination of genetic predispositions, socialization, how the individual was raised, and some person choice. What makes that seem more likely than a simple genetic determination is that sexual orientation is not purely binary options. Orientation ranges in individuals from firmly and exclusively orientated toward one gender through mixed orientation that may favor one gender over the other with various degrees of preference.

I do not believe that same-sex sexual orientation is purely a choice by the individual. But neither do I believe that it is purely a matter genetic determination. For one thing, if there is a "gay gene" that strongly determines same-sex orientation, it would be strongly selected against in the multi-generational genetic dance.

The assertion that homosexuals are simply born that was is far too facile.
I certainly believe that whatever factors that were part of my conception, gestation, and environment growing up, there was something within me that caused sexual attraction to girls. I don't recall ever making a choice for that. It just happened. Perhaps your development was different.
I am NOT asserting the homosexuality is simply a matter of choice, or heterosexuality for that matter. When I include people's choices in the mix of factors that determine how their sexual orientation develops, I am not really suggesting that they chose their orientation. Rather that the choices that they make, and the choices that others make for them, may have an influence on how their orientation develops. I think that very few if any simply sit down one day a chose their orientation, even less likely is that a pre-pubescent child would do so.

I think that sexual orientation is too complex to simply assert that people are born with a particular orientation that will inevitably emerge later in life. I think that sexual orientation develops as the child grows, influenced by a great many factors, including genetic make-up, prenatal environment, how the child is raised and socialized, the community environment, even some effect of the child's own choices may be in the mix.

For some children, that orientation may be strongly developing in a certain way from a relatively early age. Others may be more fluid or later developing. 
Quote from: John_Hannah on Yesterday at 04:41:49 PMShowing my ignorance. What is SSA and HSA?
#6
Your Turn / Re: Life Isn't Fair
Yesterday at 04:19:40 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on Yesterday at 04:11:02 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on Yesterday at 03:34:45 PM
Quote from: John Mundinger on Yesterday at 03:08:00 PM
Quote from: RDPreus on Yesterday at 10:38:24 AMBut I do not call Black people n****rs or Italian people Wops.  That's racist and I am not a racist.

You may not be a racist.  But, if you insist on referring to homosexuals as sodomites, don't be surprised if others refer to you as a homophobe.

Quote from: RDPreus on Yesterday at 10:38:24 AMWhat you fail to understand is that homosexual activity is sinful and disgusting.  It should not be respected.  It is wicked.

You fail to understand that homosexuals are born homosexual.  You also are born with a corrupted version of the image in which you are created.  You also are guilty of sinful and disgusting behavior.




You fail to understand that the assertion that homosexuals are born homosexual is unproven. The etiology of homosexuality (and sexual orientation, not to mention gender identity in general) is complex and not firmly established. There is not even complete agreement within the homosexual community. Seems to me likely that the etiology of homosexual orientation is a complex combination of genetic predispositions, socialization, how the individual was raised, and some person choice. What makes that seem more likely than a simple genetic determination is that sexual orientation is not purely binary options. Orientation ranges in individuals from firmly and exclusively orientated toward one gender through mixed orientation that may favor one gender over the other with various degrees of preference.

I do not believe that same-sex sexual orientation is purely a choice by the individual. But neither do I believe that it is purely a matter genetic determination. For one thing, if there is a "gay gene" that strongly determines same-sex orientation, it would be strongly selected against in the multi-generational genetic dance.

The assertion that homosexuals are simply born that was is far too facile.

given that my SSA level is negative, and I know I didn't chose that, Ill go with the SSA people when they've told me they've been like that since they e had attractions.  at the very least it wasn't a choice.  the way a lot of pastors talk about it, I think there's a lot more pastors that probably are probably bi or at least someone on the positive scale of SSA. 
Look, I'm not saying that it is simply a choice. I also don't think that it is just a matter of genetics. The etiology of SSA or HSA I think likely differs for different people and results from multiple factors. As to how many pastors are bi or SSA, I have no idea. I also reject the idea that everyone who agrees that same-sex sexual activity is sinful is actually a closeted homosexual covering up their SSA and deep into self-loathing. Or that described St. Paul, a frequent trope.
#7
Your Turn / Re: Life Isn't Fair
Yesterday at 03:38:31 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on Yesterday at 01:36:42 PMPastor Fienen:
Each of you find your obsessions perfectly reasoable and can't understand why the rest of us don't see and agree with your point.
Me:
No. No. And NO.
I have in my vocabulary words which would - in many places - be readily used to describe "accurately" Pastor Preus. I will not use them here as they are slurs and disrespectful.


I would not identify your obsession with sexual orientation like Pr. Preus. Nor is it exactly using pejoratives and slurs to describe people.

Your obsession is politics. You are as unreasonably obsessed with the evil of a certain businessman/politician as Pr. Preus is with homosexuals.
#8
Your Turn / Re: Life Isn't Fair
Yesterday at 03:34:45 PM
Quote from: John Mundinger on Yesterday at 03:08:00 PM
Quote from: RDPreus on Yesterday at 10:38:24 AMBut I do not call Black people n****rs or Italian people Wops.  That's racist and I am not a racist.

You may not be a racist.  But, if you insist on referring to homosexuals as sodomites, don't be surprised if others refer to you as a homophobe.

Quote from: RDPreus on Yesterday at 10:38:24 AMWhat you fail to understand is that homosexual activity is sinful and disgusting.  It should not be respected.  It is wicked.

You fail to understand that homosexuals are born homosexual.  You also are born with a corrupted version of the image in which you are created.  You also are guilty of sinful and disgusting behavior.




You fail to understand that the assertion that homosexuals are born homosexual is unproven. The etiology of homosexuality (and sexual orientation, not to mention gender identity in general) is complex and not firmly established. There is not even complete agreement within the homosexual community. Seems to me likely that the etiology of homosexual orientation is a complex combination of genetic predispositions, socialization, how the individual was raised, and some person choice. What makes that seem more likely than a simple genetic determination is that sexual orientation is not purely binary options. Orientation ranges in individuals from firmly and exclusively orientated toward one gender through mixed orientation that may favor one gender over the other with various degrees of preference. 

I do not believe that same-sex sexual orientation is purely a choice by the individual. But neither do I believe that it is purely a matter genetic determination. For one thing, if there is a "gay gene" that strongly determines same-sex orientation, it would be strongly selected against in the multi-generational genetic dance.

The assertion that homosexuals are simply born that was is far too facile.
#9
Your Turn / Re: Life Isn't Fair
Yesterday at 12:29:14 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on Yesterday at 11:52:04 AMI knew I would regret trying.
I do.
But my words, I hope, helped others, even if Pastor Preus remains in deep darkness.
People have their obsessions which often are not amenable to reason. Preus has his, and you have yours. Each of you find your obsessions perfectly reasonable and can't understand why the rest of us don't see and agree with your point.

I long realized that arguing with obsession is futile. I wish I took my own advice better.
#10
Your Turn / Re: Life Isn't Fair
July 18, 2024, 10:09:05 PM
And once again we're treated to a round of "He started it."
#11
Your Turn / Re: Life Isn't Fair
July 18, 2024, 03:29:45 PM
Another look at LCMS and the LGBTQ+ community. I'm sharing a link of a breakout session of the 2019 All Pastors' Conference with the Rev. William (Billy) A. Brath, the Vice-President for Ministry Support, East Region, Lutheran Church Extension where he talks about the LGBTQ community and how to engage them in the Church, "Loving That Neighbor."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh3tLA6uxJo&t=5s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgM_6ejcUW8&t=16s

#12
I will be interested to see if, and if so what kind of prayer will be offered at the Democratic Convention.
#13
Your Turn / Re: Prostration during Worship
July 18, 2024, 01:58:54 PM
Never seen prostration used in a Lutheran church, but see nothing wrong with it. Personally, I've reached a stage of life where I no longer kneel. I used to find those "I've fallen and I can't get up" commercials funny. No longer, tain't funny at all. 
#14
Your Turn / Re: Life Isn't Fair
July 18, 2024, 01:51:33 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on July 18, 2024, 11:10:43 AMRF and RDPreus do not speak authoritatively for the LCMS or fall all LCMS people but of their own convictions and opinions. It is not the official position of LCMS that homosexual activity should be made illegal. I have no idea how many of us would agree that it should.

Generally, we are not in favor of same-sex marriage and do consider same-sex sexual activity to be sinful. We also are generally not at all impressed by the Biblical interpretations the assert that David and Jonathan had a homosexual relationship or that Paul was a closeted homosexual.

To get a better idea of LCMS thinking on these topics I'd suggest "LCMS Task Force Report: A Plan for Ministery to Homosexuals and Their Families" and "A Chaste and Decent Life: An Update to Human Sexuality 1981 "

I have not understood the attraction of using terms for people that are generally considered pejoratives or disrespectful, even if there is historical of technical precedent for their use. People, even those we disagree with or whose life choices we disagree with, should be treated with respect and dignity.

Having said this, I also strongly object to the use of slurs and pejoratives against people who tend to be more on my side of this divide, conservatives and those espousing a tradition morality. Sauce for the gander and all that.

It has become de rigueur to immediately slap anyone who does not enthusiastically support same-sex marriage with the "bigot" or "homophobe" label. Those who oppose expansive abortion rights are "waging war on women." (If opposing expansive rights to elective abortion is waging war on women, doesn't that mean that those who do so support are waging war on babies since it is they who end up in the trash?)

And, of course, unless they make their highest priority expansive welfare, child care, and similar benefits and devote their efforts to enacting those policies before turning to concern over abortion, they aren't really "pro-life." I place that in the same bin and claiming that any Black who doesn't vote for Biden "isn't really Black."

We need more reasonable discourse and civility on all sides of these sociopolitical debates.
#15
Your Turn / Re: Life Isn't Fair
July 18, 2024, 01:38:48 PM
Quote from: RF on July 18, 2024, 12:55:13 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on July 18, 2024, 12:46:36 PM
Quote from: RDPreus on July 18, 2024, 11:04:59 AMUsing the "n" word has never been acceptable.  It's much worse than calling an Italian a wop, an Irishman a mick, or a Norwegian a dumb Swede.  It's an offensive slur.  The terms pervert and sodomite identify homosexuals by what they are, unlike the word gay.  In other words, those who call homosexuals gay don't speak the truth, but when I call them perverts and sodomites, I speak the truth.  When the truth becomes a slur, it is because those who oppose the truth have become the arbiters on what a slur is.  Should we who hold to the truth acquiesce to this?  Or should we call a spade and spade? 
From the dictionary: Sodomite - a person who engages in sodomy.
Sodomy - sexual intercourse involving anal or oral copulation.
Homosexual (noun) - a person who is sexually or romantically attracted to people of their own sex.
Homosexual (adjective) - sexually or romantically attracted to people of one's own sex.

Because homosexuality is about "attraction," there are homosexuals who have never engaged in the behaviors of sodomy. The behaviors of sodomy are also found among heterosexuals. Sodomy and homosexual are not equivalent terms.



And, don't forget what God did to Sodom for their perversity.
Was it the sin of homosexuality, the sin of attempted rape, or sin against hospitality for which Sodom was condemned? And besides, it was clearly indicated in the Genesis text that God had intended to destroy Sodom for its sins and wickedness (unspecified) before the angels came to Lot. Their attempt on the angels simply exemplified their wickedness.

We do not need Sodom to make a Biblical case for the sinfulness of homosexual activity.
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