Ecumenical setback in Portland

Started by JEdwards, January 07, 2024, 02:40:32 PM

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JEdwards

Sad story of the apparent demise of an innovative ecumenical community. While it sounds like there were plenty of missteps on all sides, I don't think anyone can credibly claim to be surprised that posting criticism of the RC Archbishop on the parish web page would lead to a result like this. It's another demonstration that many in the ELCA place a higher priority on "prophetic" speech on LGBTQ issues than on concrete progress on ecumenical endeavors with the RCC.

https://www.ncronline.org/news/portland-archbishop-bans-mass-rare-lutheran-catholic-ecumenical-community

Peace,
Jon

Charles Austin

#1
JE EDWARDS;
It's another demonstration that many in the ELCA place a higher priority on "prophetic" speech on LGBTQ issues than on concrete progress on ecumenical endeavors with the RCC.

Me:
Without the full text of the letter from the Catholic side of things, we have no way of knowing what is really going on here. NCR is a partisan publication.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

Brian Stoffregen

#2
Quote from: JEdwards on January 07, 2024, 02:40:32 PMSad story of the apparent demise of an innovative ecumenical community. While it sounds like there were plenty of missteps on all sides, I don't think anyone can credibly claim to be surprised that posting criticism of the RC Archbishop on the parish web page would lead to a result like this. It's another demonstration that many in the ELCA place a higher priority on "prophetic" speech on LGBTQ issues than on concrete progress on ecumenical endeavors with the RCC.

https://www.ncronline.org/news/portland-archbishop-bans-mass-rare-lutheran-catholic-ecumenical-community

Peace,
Jon

The Lutheran pastor now serving the congregation, Robyn Hartwig, is a good friend of mine. We were in the Sierra Pacific Synod together. I lead a retreat for her congregation council on MBTI back in 2004. She has promoted LGBTQ issues long before she was called to Spirit of Grace.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Dave Benke

Just finished reading the article, Jon.  I had to deal with an "outlier" situation like this in the LCMS in the mid-90s.  There was one remaining congregation that was listed as both LCMS and ELCA, and it was here in NY, and had been since before there was an ELCA, so when it was LCMS/LCA.  Eventually they had to make a choice.  And they remained in the LCMS. 

In this case, due to the major difference in the size of the RC nationally, this is or was an even rarer outlier, with women pastors through the years serving that congregation, which is actually kind of amazing, no?  I did not like reading of the weird way in which communication took place in these last months.  I wonder whether the ELCA local or national bishops were involved in any way or will be.

In a parallel way, it would seem to me that the more logical or aligned Lutheran/RC combination would be with the Missouri Synod.  And yet, that would be impossible from the Missouri Synod perspective. 

Dave Benke
It's OK to Pray

John Mundinger

Given the reality that we all confess the same creeds, including the belief in the one holy, catholic/Christian and apostolic church that ecumenical initiatives are not a higher priority.  I'd suggest that we do not take seriously enough the lessons from Matthew 18 in our ecumenical conversations.  I'd also suggest that our ecumenical failures compromise the great commission.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

In Columbus, the diocese closed 17 congregations and schools. Might this Portland closure be just another example of consolidation of resources?

Jeremy_Loesch

Quote from: John Mundinger on January 07, 2024, 03:58:12 PMGiven the reality that we all confess the same creeds, including the belief in the one holy, catholic/Christian and apostolic church that ecumenical initiatives are not a higher priority.  I'd suggest that we do not take seriously enough the lessons from Matthew 18 in our ecumenical conversations.  I'd also suggest that our ecumenical failures compromise the great commission.

What reality are you talking about? Your words are aspirational but I don't think there is much realism in in them.

And does the division make Jesus sad? Probably.

Jeremy

John Mundinger

#7
Quote from: Jeremy_Loesch on January 07, 2024, 07:03:21 PMWhat reality are you talking about? Your words are aspirational but I don't think there is much realism in in them.

Are you suggesting that we don't all confess one Church?

Of course it is aspirational.  But, aren't we called to be aspirational?  The only realism in the aspiration is that we are all sinners.  As such, it is too easy to make excuses for staying in our respective "comfort zones".

Quote from: Jeremy_Loesch on January 07, 2024, 07:03:21 PMAnd does the division make Jesus sad? Probably.Jeremy

I'd suggest that the answer to your question is absolutely.

"I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

JEdwards

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on January 07, 2024, 03:28:01 PM
Quote from: JEdwards on January 07, 2024, 02:40:32 PMSad story of the apparent demise of an innovative ecumenical community. While it sounds like there were plenty of missteps on all sides, I don't think anyone can credibly claim to be surprised that posting criticism of the RC Archbishop on the parish web page would lead to a result like this. It's another demonstration that many in the ELCA place a higher priority on "prophetic" speech on LGBTQ issues than on concrete progress on ecumenical endeavors with the RCC.

https://www.ncronline.org/news/portland-archbishop-bans-mass-rare-lutheran-catholic-ecumenical-community

Peace,
Jon

The Lutheran pastor now serving the congregation, Robyn Hartwig, is a good friend of mine. We were in the Sierra Pacific Synod together. I lead a retreat for her congregation council on MBTI back in 2004. She has promoted LGBTQ issues long before she was called to Spirit of Grace.
Thanks for that background. With that information, it seems plausible that she disagreed strongly with Archbishop Sample's "Guidelines on gender identity."  I take Charles' point that we don't really know all the issues in play, and we don't know the author or the substance of the criticisms posted on Spirit of Grace's website. But the NCR article suggests that items published on the website contributed to the Archbishop's decision.  I don't doubt that whatever criticisms were expressed were the sincere convictions of someone who felt compelled to speak out, but it was also predictable that doing so might jeopardize the ecumenical arrangements, and a choice was made as to what was most important.

PS - I recognize that the National Catholic Reporter is a partisan source — they generally take an editorial stance aligned with a progressive view of the Church.

Peace,
Jon

Jeremy_Loesch

I am absolutely suggesting that we don't all confess one holy church. I'm curious how you think we do? Christians have very little agreement on essentials and on convictions and barely any agreement on preferences. Christians have varied teachings on the virgin birth, the bodily death and resurrection of Jesus, on the sacraments. Those are essential teachings and there is no agreement on those.

And the quote from Jesus is very good. He also had some things to say about false christs and how we are to be on the lookout for them and not go after them. The false christs will look good and sound good but they will lead people away from Jesus and His church.

Jeremy

John Mundinger

Quote from: Jeremy_Loesch on January 07, 2024, 08:12:35 PMI am absolutely suggesting that we don't all confess one holy church. I'm curious how you think we do?

My suggestion is limited to credal churches.  They all make that confession every time they gather for worship.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Jeremy_Loesch on January 07, 2024, 08:12:35 PMI am absolutely suggesting that we don't all confess one holy church. I'm curious how you think we do? Christians have very little agreement on essentials and on convictions and barely any agreement on preferences. Christians have varied teachings on the virgin birth, the bodily death and resurrection of Jesus, on the sacraments. Those are essential teachings and there is no agreement on those.

And the quote from Jesus is very good. He also had some things to say about false christs and how we are to be on the lookout for them and not go after them. The false christs will look good and sound good but they will lead people away from Jesus and His church.

Jeremy
The difficulty is that we don't agree on what are the essentials. Mark, John, and Paul never mentions the virgin birth. It isn't essential for them. Paul writes about the resurrected spiritual body 1 Cor 15:44. 
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Dan Fienen

#12
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on January 07, 2024, 10:44:27 PM
Quote from: Jeremy_Loesch on January 07, 2024, 08:12:35 PMI am absolutely suggesting that we don't all confess one holy church. I'm curious how you think we do? Christians have very little agreement on essentials and on convictions and barely any agreement on preferences. Christians have varied teachings on the virgin birth, the bodily death and resurrection of Jesus, on the sacraments. Those are essential teachings and there is no agreement on those.

And the quote from Jesus is very good. He also had some things to say about false christs and how we are to be on the lookout for them and not go after them. The false christs will look good and sound good but they will lead people away from Jesus and His church.

Jeremy
The difficulty is that we don't agree on what are the essentials. Mark, John, and Paul never mentions the virgin birth. It isn't essential for them. Paul writes about the resurrected spiritual body 1 Cor 15:44.
Q. E. D.
Apparently,  we can't even agree on confessing the Apostles' Creed.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Brian Stoffregen

#13
Quote from: Dan Fienen on January 07, 2024, 10:50:02 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on January 07, 2024, 10:44:27 PM
Quote from: Jeremy_Loesch on January 07, 2024, 08:12:35 PMI am absolutely suggesting that we don't all confess one holy church. I'm curious how you think we do? Christians have very little agreement on essentials and on convictions and barely any agreement on preferences. Christians have varied teachings on the virgin birth, the bodily death and resurrection of Jesus, on the sacraments. Those are essential teachings and there is no agreement on those.

And the quote from Jesus is very good. He also had some things to say about false christs and how we are to be on the lookout for them and not go after them. The false christs will look good and sound good but they will lead people away from Jesus and His church.

Jeremy
The difficulty is that we don't agree on what are the essentials. Mark, John, and Paul never mentions the virgin birth. It isn't essential for them. Paul writes about the resurrected spiritual body 1 Cor 15:44.
Q. E. D.
Do you agree or not that the virgin birth was not essential to Mark, John, or Paul?

N.B. I believe that Christ was conceived in a virgin and was raised bodily. I also see that in scriptures they are as essential as some people have made them to be.

Yes, I confess and believe in the statements of our creeds. Is that necessary for salvation? I don't believe that God is limited by our creeds. The creeds affirm the resurrection without "bodily". 
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

George Rahn

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on January 07, 2024, 10:57:16 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on January 07, 2024, 10:50:02 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on January 07, 2024, 10:44:27 PM
Quote from: Jeremy_Loesch on January 07, 2024, 08:12:35 PMI am absolutely suggesting that we don't all confess one holy church. I'm curious how you think we do? Christians have very little agreement on essentials and on convictions and barely any agreement on preferences. Christians have varied teachings on the virgin birth, the bodily death and resurrection of Jesus, on the sacraments. Those are essential teachings and there is no agreement on those.

And the quote from Jesus is very good. He also had some things to say about false christs and how we are to be on the lookout for them and not go after them. The false christs will look good and sound good but they will lead people away from Jesus and His church.

Jeremy
The difficulty is that we don't agree on what are the essentials. Mark, John, and Paul never mentions the virgin birth. It isn't essential for them. Paul writes about the resurrected spiritual body 1 Cor 15:44.
Q. E. D.
Do you agree or not that the virgin birth was not essential to Mark, John, or Paul?

N.B. I believe that Christ was conceived in a virgin and was raised bodily. I also see that in scriptures they are as essential as some people have made them to be.

Yes, I confess and believe in the statements of our creeds. Is that necessary for salvation? I don't believe that God is limited by our creeds. The creeds affirm the resurrection without "bodily".


The received text of the Apostles Creed has "I believe in the resurrection of the flesh (sarx)"

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