News:


Main Menu

Women in Ministry

Started by Dave Benke, May 07, 2024, 07:45:31 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Steven W Bohler

Quote from: Charles Austin on May 20, 2024, 08:46:17 PMPastor Bohler et al:
How on earth are you going to have a fruitful conversation with an unbeliever or doubter if you immediately and always, in the strongest words, denounce them and their struggles?
"Ain't gonna talk about God to no atheist 'cause he believes in that Bible-denying science."
"What do you mean, you have doubts? You can't doubt God's word! What is the matter with you?"
The Jesuit missionary to Japan and China, Matteo Ricci (1552-1610) spent years learning language and culture before seeking to evangelize.

Do you even bother to read what others write?  I have already told you that I speak and act differently with a layman or unbeliever than I do with someone who is supposedly schooled and educated as a pastor, and who should thus know what the Bible says.  And I never said I would not talk about God with an atheist; I said I would not seek an atheist to instruct me in what the Bible says/means.  But, I suppose it makes it easier to blast away when you don't read what they write....

Donald_Kirchner

#481
Quote from: John Mundinger on May 20, 2024, 05:19:14 PM
Quote from: Donald_Kirchner on May 20, 2024, 03:12:59 PMBTW, Rolf and Steve render excellent pastoral care. I've seen it. You have not, so you don't know what you're talking about.

I make no comment about about Pr. Preus and Pr. Bohler's approach to pastoral care.  However, I'd suggest that a person who takes pride in intentionally ignoring others and calling others childish names is hardly a credible judge of excellent pastoral care.

Hmm, you must have hurt my pride.  ::)

Hey Charles! The above quoted comment is a classic argumentum ad hominem. Like bookends, it goes nicely with his usual, incessant logical fallacy: the tu quoque.

And he objects to being called a nudnik. "a pestering, annoying, or irritating person, specially someone who is always criticizing or complaining." (This cut-and-paste sure saves on typing! 😉 )
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

John_Hannah

Quote from: SomeoneWrites on May 20, 2024, 05:52:52 PM
Quote from: Steven W Bohler on May 20, 2024, 05:36:29 PMSeeking the advice of an atheist about theology seems about as wise as asking a blind man to perform brain surgery.  It is clear that we are arguing from different rulebooks -- for you, man's science rules all; for me, it is the Word of God.  You are playing Monopoly; I am playing cribbage.  1 Timothy 1:18-20.

This is all pejoratives that aren't relevant or true.  It's tiresome.  You act like I never believed before, or forgot everything I learned.  Nothing I have said is connected to my atheism.  Throw me back in the believer camp, and I'll say the same thing about Genesis. 

The nay sayers here should consider the fact that millions of devout and sincere orthodox Christians agree with what Someone says here about Genesis.

It is most doubtful that the LCMS will eventually convince the whole Christian Church on earth that everyone must revise her or his view of Genesis.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

SomeoneWrites

Quote from: John_Hannah on May 20, 2024, 09:44:49 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on May 20, 2024, 05:52:52 PM
Quote from: Steven W Bohler on May 20, 2024, 05:36:29 PMSeeking the advice of an atheist about theology seems about as wise as asking a blind man to perform brain surgery.  It is clear that we are arguing from different rulebooks -- for you, man's science rules all; for me, it is the Word of God.  You are playing Monopoly; I am playing cribbage.  1 Timothy 1:18-20.

This is all pejoratives that aren't relevant or true.  It's tiresome.  You act like I never believed before, or forgot everything I learned.  Nothing I have said is connected to my atheism.  Throw me back in the believer camp, and I'll say the same thing about Genesis. 

The nay sayers here should consider the fact that millions of devout and sincere orthodox Christians agree with what Someone says here about Genesis.

It is most doubtful that the LCMS will eventually convince the whole Christian Church on earth that everyone must revise her or his view of Genesis.

Peace, JOHN
I appreciate this. 
Thank you. 
LCMS raised
LCMS theology major
LCMS sem grad
Atheist

John_Hannah

Quote from: SomeoneWrites on May 20, 2024, 09:54:44 PM
Quote from: John_Hannah on May 20, 2024, 09:44:49 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on May 20, 2024, 05:52:52 PM
Quote from: Steven W Bohler on May 20, 2024, 05:36:29 PMSeeking the advice of an atheist about theology seems about as wise as asking a blind man to perform brain surgery.  It is clear that we are arguing from different rulebooks -- for you, man's science rules all; for me, it is the Word of God.  You are playing Monopoly; I am playing cribbage.  1 Timothy 1:18-20.

This is all pejoratives that aren't relevant or true.  It's tiresome.  You act like I never believed before, or forgot everything I learned.  Nothing I have said is connected to my atheism.  Throw me back in the believer camp, and I'll say the same thing about Genesis. 

The nay sayers here should consider the fact that millions of devout and sincere orthodox Christians agree with what Someone says here about Genesis.

It is most doubtful that the LCMS will eventually convince the whole Christian Church on earth that everyone must revise her or his view of Genesis.

Peace, JOHN
I appreciate this. 
Thank you. 


😀😏
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Brian Stoffregen

#485
Quote from: Steven W Bohler on May 20, 2024, 08:16:51 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 20, 2024, 07:33:29 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on May 20, 2024, 06:49:27 PMI predict that the next thousand creatures to procreate anywhere on the planet will do so according to their kind. If that happens, it will demonstrate Genesis to be literally true.  :P
Is a child with Down's Syndrome or achondroplasia the same kind as the parents? There is a different genetic makeup. Or what about two achondroplasia parents who give birth to an average height child. They have produced something different than their own kind.

Are you suggesting that someone with Down's Syndrome (such as my niece) is not human?  Or of another kind than human?
I'm suggesting nothing. I asked a question. How do you answer it? Is a person with Down's Syndrome the same kind as the parents? My answer (in good ELCA fashion): She is the same kind and different. She has 47 chromosomes rather than the 46 (23 pairs) of her parents. That makes her slightly different. With 22 of those pairs of chromosomes she is the same as her parents. She is both the same and different.

(A previous presiding bishop described the ELCA as a church of the "and": saint and sinner, Jesus is human and divine; it is bread and Jesus' body, etc.)

My point is to show that evolutionary changes come in very small increments; perhaps only one chromosome. or one modified gene at a time.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Charles Austin

Pastor Hannah:
The nay sayers here should consider the fact that millions of devout and sincere orthodox Christians agree with what Someone says here about Genesis.
  It is most doubtful that the LCMS will eventually convince the whole Christian Church on earth that everyone must revise her or his view of Genesis.
Me:
Yes. And for years I have said that a fair, professional, non-partisan survey of the theologians, pastors and laypeople in the LCMS would place a huge number of them with those "millions of sincere orthodox Christians."
  Probably not the family of Pastor Preus or leaders of Pastor Bohler's congregation, but ... ... ...
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

Steven W Bohler

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 20, 2024, 10:52:36 PM
Quote from: Steven W Bohler on May 20, 2024, 08:16:51 PM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 20, 2024, 07:33:29 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on May 20, 2024, 06:49:27 PMI predict that the next thousand creatures to procreate anywhere on the planet will do so according to their kind. If that happens, it will demonstrate Genesis to be literally true.  :P
Is a child with Down's Syndrome or achondroplasia the same kind as the parents? There is a different genetic makeup. Or what about two achondroplasia parents who give birth to an average height child. They have produced something different than their own kind.

Are you suggesting that someone with Down's Syndrome (such as my niece) is not human?  Or of another kind than human?
I'm suggesting nothing. I asked a question. How do you answer it? Is a person with Down's Syndrome the same kind as the parents? My answer (in good ELCA fashion): She is the same kind and different. She has 47 chromosomes rather than the 46 (23 pairs) of her parents. That makes her slightly different. With 22 of those pairs of chromosomes she is the same as her parents. She is both the same and different.

(A previous presiding bishop described the ELCA as a church of the "and": saint and sinner, Jesus is human and divine; it is bread and Jesus' body, etc.)

My point is to show that evolutionary changes come in very small increments; perhaps only one chromosome. or one modified gene at a time.

How do I answer?  She is a human, just like you and me.  If your answer is anything else-- including your "good ELCA answer" of yes and no -- then I need to ask a follow-up question: is she of the same "kind" as Jesus?  Did He take her place in life and death?  Or does she need a Down's Syndrome Savior?

Steven W Bohler

Quote from: Charles Austin on May 20, 2024, 10:56:36 PMPastor Hannah:
The nay sayers here should consider the fact that millions of devout and sincere orthodox Christians agree with what Someone says here about Genesis.
  It is most doubtful that the LCMS will eventually convince the whole Christian Church on earth that everyone must revise her or his view of Genesis.
Me:
Yes. And for years I have said that a fair, professional, non-partisan survey of the theologians, pastors and laypeople in the LCMS would place a huge number of them with those "millions of sincere orthodox Christians."
  Probably not the family of Pastor Preus or leaders of Pastor Bohler's congregation, but ... ... ...


And I will probably not convince the millions of Christians who deny that it IS the Body and Blood of Christ in the Supper, given for their forgiveness.  But I will still insist that it is so.  Because the Bible says it is.  Because God says it is.  Likewise with the creation account as given in Genesis.

John Mundinger

Quote from: John_Hannah on May 20, 2024, 09:44:49 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on May 20, 2024, 05:52:52 PM
Quote from: Steven W Bohler on May 20, 2024, 05:36:29 PMSeeking the advice of an atheist about theology seems about as wise as asking a blind man to perform brain surgery.  It is clear that we are arguing from different rulebooks -- for you, man's science rules all; for me, it is the Word of God.  You are playing Monopoly; I am playing cribbage.  1 Timothy 1:18-20.

This is all pejoratives that aren't relevant or true.  It's tiresome.  You act like I never believed before, or forgot everything I learned.  Nothing I have said is connected to my atheism.  Throw me back in the believer camp, and I'll say the same thing about Genesis. 

The nay sayers here should consider the fact that millions of devout and sincere orthodox Christians agree with what Someone says here about Genesis.

It is most doubtful that the LCMS will eventually convince the whole Christian Church on earth that everyone must revise her or his view of Genesis.

Peace, JOHN

Interestingly, I learned about evolution in 8th grade science class at St. Paul's Lutheran school, Ft. Wayne.  And, evolution was taught in biology class at Concordia High School, Ft. Wayne.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Charles Austin

#490
Pastor Bohler:
And I will probably not convince the millions of Christians who deny that it IS the Body and Blood of Christ in the Supper, given for their forgiveness.
Me:
And if, In the 1500+ year discussion about how Christ is present, they do not end up stating the Holy Presence (which they believe in) with precisely your terms, are they not Christian? Do they not believe the Bible? Are they not in the Body of Christ, the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church?

Pastor Bohler:

But I will still insist that it is so. Because the Bible says it is.  Because God says it is.
Me:
Ok. You go ahead and insist. But answer my questions. Until the rest of Christianity falls under the mighty power of your insisting, are we not, etc. etc. ?

Pastor Bohler:
Likewise with the creation account.
Me:
Likewise with my question.
I - and those multi-millions - believe that God is the Creator of "all that is visible and invisible." Genesis stories do not teach us how God did it.
So are we Christians? In the Church, the Body of Christ? Or do you declare us out?
P.S. I would miss the pleasure of communing with you in your parish, but I guess I'll have to live with that. 🫠
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

RF

Serious question:

I've never understood how (macro) evolution could occur.  How likely is it that two critters would evolve simultaneously to a different species and find each other and mate in order to continue the evolved critter (species?) going forward? Sorry if that isn't clear.  Thanks.   

peter_speckhard

#492
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 20, 2024, 07:33:29 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on May 20, 2024, 06:49:27 PMI predict that the next thousand creatures to procreate anywhere on the planet will do so according to their kind. If that happens, it will demonstrate Genesis to be literally true.  :P
Is a child with Down's Syndrome or achondroplasia the same kind as the parents? There is a different genetic makeup. Or what about two achondroplasia parents who give birth to an average height child. They have produced something different than their own kind.
Here is where discussions like this inevitably lead-- dehumanizing of people. People who take Genesis literally rarely have trouble knowing what a person is. People who think there is a continuous spectrum of life from the animals to human such that we all have sub-human ancestors, tend to be pretty squishy on what constitutes human life and how the dignity of it is to be regarded.

Steven W Bohler

Rev. Austin;

Still having trouble reading/understanding simple English?  I said they were Christians.

SomeoneWrites

Quote from: peter_speckhard on May 21, 2024, 08:49:12 AMHere is where discussions like this inevitably lead-- dehumanizing of people. People who take Genesis literally rarely have trouble knowing what a person is. People who think there is a continuous spectrum of life from the animals to human such that we all have sub-human ancestors, tend to be pretty squishy on what constitutes human life and how the dignity of it is to be regarded.
No.  Here is one line of discussion, and it's not relevant to the facts at hand.  What people do with facts doesn't make them any more or less true.  So we can talk about this issue, but I'd prefer it not to dance around fallacies. 

Quote from: Steven W Bohler on May 21, 2024, 06:45:11 AMAnd I will probably not convince the millions of Christians who deny that it IS the Body and Blood of Christ in the Supper, given for their forgiveness.  But I will still insist that it is so.  Because the Bible says it is.  Because God says it is.  Likewise with the creation account as given in Genesis.

The issue is that you're seeing it as a God says/Bible says/Man says.  Others are contending that you're misunderstanding what God says through both His word and His creation. 


Quote from: RF on May 21, 2024, 08:39:20 AMSerious question:

I've never understood how (macro) evolution could occur.  How likely is it that two critters would evolve simultaneously to a different species and find each other and mate in order to continue the evolved critter (species?) going forward? Sorry if that isn't clear.  Thanks.   

Glad you asked.  It's more about populations than individuals.  If a mutation becomes fixed in a species, the species changes.  For a good look of it in action, please see this link about these lizards that continue after their own kind, but are split geographically.  As time went on, they can mate with those further back the chain, but not with each other at the ends of the ring.  They will continue to grow further a
part over time. 

https://evolution.berkeley.edu/a-closer-look-at-a-classic-ring-species/

don't forget to click "next" when you're done with the page.  There's a decent amount of info, but it's all accessible and well explained. 
LCMS raised
LCMS theology major
LCMS sem grad
Atheist

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk