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Started by peter_speckhard, April 21, 2024, 02:08:06 PM

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RF

If you choose to fly a flag it should be the flag of the state and/or country in which you live. Flying flags of other countries generally signifies you don't like or respect where you have chosen to live, or that you're just virtue signaling.

John Mundinger

Quote from: peter_speckhard on April 21, 2024, 03:22:28 PMI do support the minimum amount of violence necessary to eliminate Hamas, but that wouldn't be the reason I would fly the flag. Many American Jews are also against that war. In my context, flying the flag would support Israeli and Jewish people in America who are legally here and not representing any enemy of America, but still being made to feel as though they are not welcome or safe in the U.S. And it is not by a few random slack-jaws but by people who wield real, institutional authority. It would also establish that we will not tolerate people who handle their disagreements via intimidation and disruption. If you disagree and want to debate, fine. If you disagree and want block interstates, glue yourself places, occupy universities, shout epithets at Jews, etc. then nuts to you. 

Flying the flag might be an expression of support for Israel.  I do not see how it is an expression of support for American Jews.  And, please note that, while there may have been demonstrations from the left against Jews from the left, in recent history, the lethal assaults against Jews have been perpetrated by right wing extremists.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

RDPreus

Quote from: John Mundinger on April 21, 2024, 05:44:50 PM
Quote from: peter_speckhard on April 21, 2024, 03:30:29 PMAlso, most of the protests are not just anti-Israel, they are pro-Hamas, which is reprehensible in the extreme.

fact check???

As I recall that Palestinian Congresswoman from Detroit refused to support a resolution condemning Hamas.  That says something, doesn't it?  Can one be pro-Palestinian while condemning Hamas?  If not, no civilized person can be pro-Palestinian.  And that's a problem.

John Mundinger

Quote from: RDPreus on April 21, 2024, 05:49:50 PMAs I recall that Palestinian Congresswoman from Detroit refused to support a resolution condemning Hamas.  That says something, doesn't it?  Can one be pro-Palestinian while condemning Hamas?  If not, no civilized person can be pro-Palestinian.  And that's a problem.

And, the United States just vetoed a U.N. Security Council resolution to recognize the Palestinian state.  Can one be anti-Hamas without being anti-Palestine.

And, please note my original comment.  Israel is engaged in the murdering of innocent Palestinian people and doing so with the support of this country.  People of faith in this country are making excuses for murder.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Dan Fienen

Quote from: Charles Austin on April 21, 2024, 05:26:39 PMPeter writes:
Blocking major highways in support of an Islamist terrorist organization is in no way akin to the Underground Railroad or Boston Tea Party.

I comment:
Oh? Why?
What do you think the English colonialists thought of the Sons of Liberty?
What do you think slave owners thought of those disrupting their lives and property by not returning fugitive slaves?
Is support of an organization that uses the capture and holding of civilians as hostages, the intentional targeting and killing of civilians as the objective of an attack rather than collateral damage, the use of sexual violence as an intentional tactic of attack the moral equivalent of the destruction of property as a form of protest, or the hiding and transport of those who had been enslaved to get them to freedom? That is what you seem to be suggesting Support for Hamas, which is what the current protests at Columbia University as well as the other protests that disrupted traffic, etc. are in favor of. The current rhetoric is not just opposed to Israel for killing as many as they have in Gaza, it is in support of Hamas whose atrocities on Oct. 7 is well known, as well as advocating for further such attacks.

These protesters, Charles, that you are supporting, have you actually listened to what they are advocating, what they support? The are pro-Palestinian, true. But they are not just supporting the right of Palestinians to live in safety and dignity in their own land, under their own control. The are supporting the right of Hamas, in the name of the Palestinians to rape, murder, and take hostage civilians, not as incidental to military objectives but as a strategy of war. These protesters are rejoicing and celebrating that Hamas did that and advocate that the same be done again and again. They are (at Columbia University) advocating that Jewish students be killed. They are advocating for genocide of Jews.

Do you seriously want us to consider protesters advocating rape and murder of civilians the moral equivalent of the Suns of Liberty or the Underground Railroad? Do you consider Harriet Tubman the moral equivalent of rapists and murderers? Really?!?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Dan Fienen

Quote from: John Mundinger on April 21, 2024, 05:54:19 PM
Quote from: RDPreus on April 21, 2024, 05:49:50 PMAs I recall that Palestinian Congresswoman from Detroit refused to support a resolution condemning Hamas.  That says something, doesn't it?  Can one be pro-Palestinian while condemning Hamas?  If not, no civilized person can be pro-Palestinian.  And that's a problem.

And, the United States just vetoed a U.N. Security Council resolution to recognize the Palestinian state.  Can one be anti-Hamas without being anti-Palestine.

And, please note my original comment.  Israel is engaged in the murdering of innocent Palestinian people and doing so with the support of this country.  People of faith in this country are making excuses for murder.
And pro-Hamas protests are also making excusers for rape and murder. At Columbia the protesters are also calling for the killing of American Jewish students. 
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

John Mundinger

Quote from: Dan Fienen on April 21, 2024, 06:00:17 PMAnd pro-Hamas protests are also making excusers for rape and murder. At Columbia the protesters are also calling for the killing of American Jewish students.

If so, I share your opposition to such calls.

To reiterate, you and I are culpable for the murder of innocent Palestinians.  We are not culpable for the rapes and murders committed by Hamas and those rapes and murders do not justify the murder of innocent Palestinians.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Dan Fienen

Quote from: John Mundinger on April 21, 2024, 06:09:36 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on April 21, 2024, 06:00:17 PMAnd pro-Hamas protests are also making excusers for rape and murder. At Columbia the protesters are also calling for the killing of American Jewish students.

If so, I share your opposition to such calls.

To reiterate, you and I are culpable for the murder of innocent Palestinians.  We are not culpable for the rapes and murders committed by Hamas and those rapes and murders do not justify the murder of innocent Palestinians.
So, what do you suggest that we as a nation do? 
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

John Mundinger

Quote from: Dan Fienen on April 21, 2024, 06:13:05 PM
Quote from: John Mundinger on April 21, 2024, 06:09:36 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on April 21, 2024, 06:00:17 PMAnd pro-Hamas protests are also making excusers for rape and murder. At Columbia the protesters are also calling for the killing of American Jewish students.

If so, I share your opposition to such calls.

To reiterate, you and I are culpable for the murder of innocent Palestinians.  We are not culpable for the rapes and murders committed by Hamas and those rapes and murders do not justify the murder of innocent Palestinians.
So, what do you suggest that we as a nation do?

Call Israel to account; condition arms sales on behavior that is consistent with just war theory; diplomatic efforts to promote a Palestinian state.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Dan Fienen

Quote from: Charles Austin on April 21, 2024, 05:26:39 PMPeter writes:
Blocking major highways in support of an Islamist terrorist organization is in no way akin to the Underground Railroad or Boston Tea Party.

I comment:
Oh? Why?
What do you think the English colonialists thought of the Sons of Liberty?
What do you think slave owners thought of those disrupting their lives and property by not returning fugitive slaves?
If one is protesting, does it matter what you are protesting in favor of or in opposition to? You protested against the Viet Nam war, did you take part in actual demonstrations or did you simply write in support of those who did demonstrate? (I'm not being snarky, I simply do not remember what sorts of support/protesting you did against the war in Viet Nam.) In either case, I presume you protested in favor of a cause that you believed was correct and justified.

Do you agree that in protesting, you were the moral equivalent of those who today protest against Israel and in favor not just of the Palestinians, but in support of Hamas and call for further actions against civilians like was done on Oct. 7, 2023, and in favor of similar actions against Jewish American students on our college campuses?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

RF

Quote from: John Mundinger on April 21, 2024, 06:09:36 PMTo reiterate, you and I are culpable for the murder of innocent Palestinians.

Why?  It's not a tool or its supplier that harms people. It's the user that acts inappropriately. In other words, I am not a proponent of banning ball bats, table knives, sharp pencils or aircraft.

Dan Fienen

Quote from: John Mundinger on April 21, 2024, 06:27:02 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on April 21, 2024, 06:13:05 PM
Quote from: John Mundinger on April 21, 2024, 06:09:36 PM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on April 21, 2024, 06:00:17 PMAnd pro-Hamas protests are also making excusers for rape and murder. At Columbia the protesters are also calling for the killing of American Jewish students.

If so, I share your opposition to such calls.

To reiterate, you and I are culpable for the murder of innocent Palestinians.  We are not culpable for the rapes and murders committed by Hamas and those rapes and murders do not justify the murder of innocent Palestinians.
So, what do you suggest that we as a nation do?

Call Israel to account; condition arms sales on behavior that is consistent with just war theory; diplomatic efforts to promote a Palestinian state.
OK, if we are to make our aid contingent on their rules of engagement, how they conduct themselves, then we need to tell them what we believe they should do. How then would you suggest they oppose Hamas who have consistently broken every cease fire, consistently rejected any two-state solution, who have waged war, including the use of sexual violence as a tactic of war in a way that is both consistent with your understanding of just war theory and which protects the Israeli population? You want to dictate their conduct, what are your terms?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

George Rahn

Quote from: RF on April 21, 2024, 05:47:33 PMIf you choose to fly a flag it should be the flag of the state and/or country in which you live. Flying flags of other countries generally signifies you don't like or respect where you have chosen to live, or that you're just virtue signaling.

Yes.  I agree with this.

George Rahn

Quote from: RF on April 21, 2024, 06:34:16 PM
Quote from: John Mundinger on April 21, 2024, 06:09:36 PMTo reiterate, you and I are culpable for the murder of innocent Palestinians.

Why?  It's not a tool or its supplier that harms people. It's the user that acts inappropriately. In other words, I am not a proponent of banning ball bats, table knives, sharp pencils or aircraft.

Yes.  In addition, why should we as a people and state be culpable for what happens elsewhere?   I think it is dreaming.

Weedon

Quote from: George Rahn on April 21, 2024, 06:42:04 PM
Quote from: RF on April 21, 2024, 05:47:33 PMIf you choose to fly a flag it should be the flag of the state and/or country in which you live. Flying flags of other countries generally signifies you don't like or respect where you have chosen to live, or that you're just virtue signaling.

Yes.  I agree with this.

I don't. I have a friend who's German in heritage. Every once in a while, he'll prepare a German feast at his house and he'll fly the German flag outside to welcome us. It's not virtue signalling or disrespect for the USA; it's just celebrating his heritage. And I wouldn't be surprised to see a Mexican flag outside his place before a Mexican feast he was serving up. Let's not be so quick to be judgy.

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