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Women in Ministry

Started by Dave Benke, May 07, 2024, 07:45:31 PM

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J. Thomas Shelley

Quote from: SomeoneWrites on May 15, 2024, 10:53:25 PM
Quote from: J. Thomas Shelley on May 15, 2024, 10:32:33 PM
There came a time when this ministry fell into disuse in the Church. We do not know the exact reasons for its disappearance.


"Disuse" certainly, but never Canonically prohibited.

"Disuse" roughly coinciding with Communing with the spoon.

"Disuse" roughly coinciding with the beginnings of Iconoclasm.

And all of the above roughly coinciding with the ascendancy of Islam.

I'm not sure what you mean by these.

The disuse of the female diaconate (never Canonically prohibited), Communion with the Spoon, and the beginnings of Iconoclasm all roughly coincided with the rise of Islam.

Implicit:  Changes occurred within Orthodox Christianity.  Some temporary, some more permanent.
Greek Orthodox Deacon - Ecumenical Patriarchate
Ordained to the Holy Diaconate Mary of Egypt Sunday A.D. 2022

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

pearson

Quote from: J. Thomas Shelley on May 15, 2024, 10:59:39 PMThe disuse of the female diaconate (never Canonically prohibited), Communion with the Spoon, and the beginnings of Iconoclasm all roughly coincided with the rise of Islam.


Deacon Shelley, are you suggesting that this is a case of causation, or a case of correlation?

Tom Pearson

J. Thomas Shelley

Quote from: pearson on May 15, 2024, 11:06:09 PM
Quote from: J. Thomas Shelley on May 15, 2024, 10:59:39 PMThe disuse of the female diaconate (never Canonically prohibited), Communion with the Spoon, and the beginnings of Iconoclasm all roughly coincided with the rise of Islam.


Deacon Shelley, are you suggesting that this is a case of causation, or a case of correlation?

Tom Pearson

Yes.

Causation for the latter two; correlation (but not ruling out causation) for the first.
Greek Orthodox Deacon - Ecumenical Patriarchate
Ordained to the Holy Diaconate Mary of Egypt Sunday A.D. 2022

Baptized, Confirmed, and Ordained United Methodist.
Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: RDPreus on May 15, 2024, 10:51:05 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on May 15, 2024, 10:14:57 PM
Quote from: RDPreus on May 15, 2024, 04:46:46 PMLike the plain natural meaning of the written Word of God that teaches us that God made the world in six days, made Adam from the dust of the ground and Eve from Adam's rib, and told us in no uncertain terms that He doesn't want women to be pastors.  :)

That's not what it teaches.  That's what it narrates.  What it teaches, particularly Genesis 1+2 is debatable. 

You're wrong.  It is what it teaches.  What it "narrates" is what happened.  There is nothing in the text that suggests that this account is not intended by the author to be understood as historical.  As far as what is debatable is concerned, you would debate the existence of God.  That doesn't mean He doesn't exist.
There's nothing in The Hobbit that suggests that the account is not intended by the author to be understood as historical. 
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

SomeoneWrites

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 15, 2024, 11:47:48 PM
Quote from: RDPreus on May 15, 2024, 10:51:05 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on May 15, 2024, 10:14:57 PM
Quote from: RDPreus on May 15, 2024, 04:46:46 PMLike the plain natural meaning of the written Word of God that teaches us that God made the world in six days, made Adam from the dust of the ground and Eve from Adam's rib, and told us in no uncertain terms that He doesn't want women to be pastors.  :)

That's not what it teaches.  That's what it narrates.  What it teaches, particularly Genesis 1+2 is debatable. 

You're wrong.  It is what it teaches.  What it "narrates" is what happened.  There is nothing in the text that suggests that this account is not intended by the author to be understood as historical.  As far as what is debatable is concerned, you would debate the existence of God.  That doesn't mean He doesn't exist.
There's nothing in The Hobbit that suggests that the account is not intended by the author to be understood as historical.

This is a fantastic example, not because of any snark, but because the Hobbit is written by the character of Bilbo.  It even, because of a change in one of the early editions, comes into play of Bilbo putting his own spin on the Gollum part. 
LCMS raised
LCMS theology major
LCMS sem grad
Atheist

Charles Austin

I will say it again. If Pastor Preus and his gang want to believe the way they do, they can believe that way. I can still think them wrong, silly and scandalous in the misuse of their God-given brains. But who cares what I think?
What gets my brain cells twizzling is his maniacal insistence that every Christian has to believe his way.
The craziness is compounded when we remember that nowhere near all the people in his church body believe as he does.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

RDPreus

Quote from: Charles Austin on May 16, 2024, 12:01:52 AMI will say it again. If Pastor Preus and his gang want to believe the way they do, they can believe that way. I can still think them wrong, silly and scandalous in the misuse of their God-given brains. But who cares what I think?
What gets my brain cells twizzling is his maniacal insistence that every Christian has to believe his way.
The craziness is compounded when we remember that nowhere near all the people in his church body believe as he does.

I think it's about time you put up or shut up, Rev. Austin.  You repeatedly argue against my position by saying that many LCMS folks don't agree with me.  Okay.  I want you to name one active pastor or theological professor in the LCMS who agrees with you and disagrees with me on the historicity of Genesis 1-3. 

John_Hannah

Deacon Shelley,

Is the Patriarch of Alexandria the same as the Coptic Orthodox Church? The Coptic Church is centered in Alexandria.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Charles Austin

Get real, Pastor Preus, and look at the statistics of Americans who believe the way you do. The numbers vary, depending on how the question is asked, but probably fewer than 40% of all Americans believe in a literal genesis. Do you think people in your church body are totally outside those statistics. I don't.
   Name someone? You gotta be kidding. You think I would give you targets?
Nope.
   But I might humbly suggest, and will certainly understand if there is no response, how many LCMS pastors in this modest forum believe Genesis 1 is "history" as we know history.
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

Buckeye Deaconess

Quote from: Charles Austin on May 16, 2024, 12:01:52 AMI will say it again. If Pastor Preus and his gang want to believe the way they do, they can believe that way. I can still think them wrong, silly and scandalous in the misuse of their God-given brains. But who cares what I think?
What gets my brain cells twizzling is his maniacal insistence that every Christian has to believe his way.
The craziness is compounded when we remember that nowhere near all the people in his church body believe as he does.

Quote from: Charles Austin on May 15, 2024, 06:18:41 PMI am asking the moderators again to deal with the cowardly anonymous posters hiding as they post derogatory or unctuous, insincere comments about me and Pastor Stoffregen.

The named posters aren't much better.  Case in point. ^^^^

Quote from: Charles Austin on May 16, 2024, 12:01:52 AMBut who cares what I think?

You said it.

David Garner

Quote from: John_Hannah on May 16, 2024, 09:09:19 AMDeacon Shelley,

Is the Patriarch of Alexandria the same as the Coptic Orthodox Church? The Coptic Church is centered in Alexandria.

Peace, JOHN

It is not.  The Patriarch of Alexandria is a canonical Orthodox Patriarch in communion with all the others.  The Coptic Patriarch of Alexandria is in schism from the Orthodox Church at present, and has been for about 1500 years.  They refused to follow Chalcedon or any of the Councils after Chalcedon.  That schism is probably closer to being healed than any of the others, but I wouldn't say it's particularly close.

As an aside, the Patriarch of Alexandria and the Coptic Patriarch both use the title "Pope," along with the bishop of Rome, and always have.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

RDPreus

Quote from: Charles Austin on May 16, 2024, 09:24:01 AMGet real, Pastor Preus, and look at the statistics of Americans who believe the way you do. The numbers vary, depending on how the question is asked, but probably fewer than 40% of all Americans believe in a literal genesis. Do you think people in your church body are totally outside those statistics. I don't.
  Name someone? You gotta be kidding. You think I would give you targets?
Nope.
  But I might humbly suggest, and will certainly understand if there is no response, how many LCMS pastors in this modest forum believe Genesis 1 is "history" as we know history.

You won't name anyone because you don't know any LCMS pastors under the age of seventy-five that reject the historicity of Genesis 1-3.  You're living in the past, Rev. Austin.  The libs of the sixties and seventies are mostly gone.  This is 2024.  The historical critical method, without which the seminary professors under Tietjen's presidency could not do their jobs (according to what Tietjen said at the time), has been debunked by professors at both seminaries for the past fifty years.  That's a long time.  While the LCMS is not perfect and has many flaws, it has stood firm on biblical inerrancy and the historicity of Genesis.  Thank God!  He showed mercy to an undeserving Missouri Synod, delivering them from their own folly, and preserving for them the authoritative Holy Scriptures.

pearson

Quote from: J. Thomas Shelley on May 15, 2024, 11:13:08 PM
Quote from: pearson on May 15, 2024, 11:06:09 PM
Quote from: J. Thomas Shelley on May 15, 2024, 10:59:39 PMThe disuse of the female diaconate (never Canonically prohibited), Communion with the Spoon, and the beginnings of Iconoclasm all roughly coincided with the rise of Islam.


Deacon Shelley, are you suggesting that this is a case of causation, or a case of correlation?


Yes.

Causation for the latter two; correlation (but not ruling out causation) for the first.


Thanks for this.  I am not particularly well-versed in the history of the Eastern Churches or of Byzantine history is particular.  So let me ask:  can you say more about how you understand the causal connection between the rise of Islam and Communion with the Spoon, and the causal connection between the rise of Islam and the beginnings of Iconoclasm?  Thanks again.

Tom Pearson

John_Hannah

Quote from: David Garner on May 16, 2024, 10:04:00 AM
Quote from: John_Hannah on May 16, 2024, 09:09:19 AMDeacon Shelley,

Is the Patriarch of Alexandria the same as the Coptic Orthodox Church? The Coptic Church is centered in Alexandria.

Peace, JOHN

It is not.  The Patriarch of Alexandria is a canonical Orthodox Patriarch in communion with all the others.  The Coptic Patriarch of Alexandria is in schism from the Orthodox Church at present, and has been for about 1500 years.  They refused to follow Chalcedon or any of the Councils after Chalcedon.  That schism is probably closer to being healed than any of the others, but I wouldn't say it's particularly close.

As an aside, the Patriarch of Alexandria and the Coptic Patriarch both use the title "Pope," along with the bishop of Rome, and always have.

I suspected such. Thanks.
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Tom Eckstein

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on May 15, 2024, 11:47:48 PM
Quote from: RDPreus on May 15, 2024, 10:51:05 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on May 15, 2024, 10:14:57 PM
Quote from: RDPreus on May 15, 2024, 04:46:46 PMLike the plain natural meaning of the written Word of God that teaches us that God made the world in six days, made Adam from the dust of the ground and Eve from Adam's rib, and told us in no uncertain terms that He doesn't want women to be pastors.  :)

That's not what it teaches.  That's what it narrates.  What it teaches, particularly Genesis 1+2 is debatable. 

You're wrong.  It is what it teaches.  What it "narrates" is what happened.  There is nothing in the text that suggests that this account is not intended by the author to be understood as historical.  As far as what is debatable is concerned, you would debate the existence of God.  That doesn't mean He doesn't exist.
There's nothing in The Hobbit that suggests that the account is not intended by the author to be understood as historical.

The problem with your "Hobbit" example is that the "Hobbit" is not inspired Scripture from God and Tolkien knew he was writing FICTION when he wrote it.

In contrast, both the OT and NT treat Genesis 1 & 2 as actual history - even including the first human male, Adam, in historical genealogies!! 
I'm an LCMS Pastor in Jamestown, ND.

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