Transgender care — shall we follow the science?

Started by JEdwards, April 10, 2024, 07:20:37 PM

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Jim Butler

"Pastor Butler... [is] deaf to the cries of people like me, dismissing our concerns as Satanic scenarios, denouncing our faith and our very existence."--Charles Austin

Michael Speckhard

Thank you for posting this. Here is a link to the actual report itself.

https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/

This report confirms what so many people already knew but were too scared to say out loud for fear of the repercussions.  One detransitioner I follow on Twitter said something like "This report is great, and I'm glad that they're finally doing something to fix the problem, but my genitals are already gone. The damage is done."

Hopefully, our own politicians will realize how barbaric this all is and stop the madness before any more children get hurt.

JoshuaMc

#4
The Economist has a paywall, so here's an article from The Guardian
Thousands of children unsure of gender identity 'let down by NHS', report finds

This makes me think of two things:

First, it seems to me like Cass blames the polarised debate on fringes from both sides of things. Her quote is magnificently pointed:
Quote"There are few other areas of healthcare where professionals are so afraid to openly discuss their views, where people are vilified on social media, and where name-calling echoes the worst bullying behaviour. This must stop."


Second, what a shame that we don't have a centralised, socialised health service in this country that can do things like commission this sort of inquiry in order to guide care for everyone in a responsible way.

Peace,
Josh
Joshua McGuffie
"But if you're feeling sinister, go off and see a minister..." (1996)

Donald_Kirchner

#5
Quote from: JoshuaMc on April 10, 2024, 07:55:24 PMSecond, what a shame that we don't have a centralised, socialised health service in this country that can do things like commission this sort of inquiry in order to guide care for everyone in a responsible way.

I think you've missed the point. Or, are you setting up John Mundinger for another legalistic/judgmental rant?
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Brian Stoffregen

Following the science is mostly theoretical. What about experiences with real people? What will you do when a 22-year-old you confirmed announces that she is transitioning and is using a new name - and his mother approves of it? What will you do when a 22-year-old whose wedding you did, whose wife you confirmed, announces that he is transitioning and is going by a new name? Do you pull out the science articles? Do you continue to be their pastor and a friend as you were before the announcements? 

Because I have retired and moved, I'm no longer in direct contact with these people - except through Facebook. I still consider them friends. Should they show up in a church I'm serving, they would be invited to receive communion. 
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Dan Fienen

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on April 11, 2024, 01:03:05 AMFollowing the science is mostly theoretical. What about experiences with real people? What will you do when a 22-year-old you confirmed announces that she is transitioning and is using a new name - and his mother approves of it? What will you do when a 22-year-old whose wedding you did, whose wife you confirmed, announces that he is transitioning and is going by a new name? Do you pull out the science articles? Do you continue to be their pastor and a friend as you were before the announcements?

Because I have retired and moved, I'm no longer in direct contact with these people - except through Facebook. I still consider them friends. Should they show up in a church I'm serving, they would be invited to receive communion.
There is a crucial difference between this British study and your cases. The British study was about adolescents, 22 year olds are no longer adolescents.  
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

John Mundinger

Quote from: Donald_Kirchner on April 10, 2024, 08:12:32 PM
Quote from: JoshuaMc on April 10, 2024, 07:55:24 PMSecond, what a shame that we don't have a centralised, socialised health service in this country that can do things like commission this sort of inquiry in order to guide care for everyone in a responsible way.

I think you've missed the point. Or, are you setting up John Mundinger for another legalistic/judgmental rant?

Actually, I think he is correct on both points.
There is a lot that we do not know about the transgender issue.  Two things that we do know:
1) there is need for more information - information collected systematically and analyzed objectively.
2) there is a need for greater empathy.  Before jumping to legalistic/judgmental rants against transgendered individuals and those who provide for their care, individual who are so inclined should try to understand the issue from the perspective of those who identify as transgender.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

JEdwards

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on April 11, 2024, 01:03:05 AMFollowing the science is mostly theoretical. What about experiences with real people? What will you do when a 22-year-old you confirmed announces that she is transitioning and is using a new name - and his mother approves of it? What will you do when a 22-year-old whose wedding you did, whose wife you confirmed, announces that he is transitioning and is going by a new name? Do you pull out the science articles? Do you continue to be their pastor and a friend as you were before the announcements?

Because I have retired and moved, I'm no longer in direct contact with these people - except through Facebook. I still consider them friends. Should they show up in a church I'm serving, they would be invited to receive communion.
As I explain to students and residents, the rigor of evidence needed to justify a decision depends in large measure on the cost and risk of the proposed treatment. If one of my patients wants to try something unorthodox but basically harmless, I will usually go along, but I'm not going to order something risky or expensive (usually paid for by a third party) without solid evidence to support that decision.
While one can debate the value of using chosen pronouns—-even silly ones—- that is a whole other discussion than whether there is adequate evidence for the irreversible medical and surgical "treatments" regularly given to adolescents.

I think using ivermectin to treat COVID is quackery, but still more justifiable than a lot of what is being done to kids with gender dysphoria.

Peace,
Jon


John Mundinger

Quote from: JEdwards on April 11, 2024, 07:06:51 AMI think using ivermectin to treat COVID is quackery, but still more justifiable than a lot of what is being done to kids with gender dysphoria.

Gender dysphoria is the psychological distress experienced by those with non-conforming gender identity and not a diagnosis of those whose gender identity is non-conforming.

Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Charles Austin

Is the objection that gender transformation is being done for teenagers, or is the objection that it is being done at all?
ELCA PASTOR. Iowa born and raised. Former journalist. Former news director and spokesman for the LCA. Former LWF staff in Geneva, Switzerland.  Parishes in Iowa. New Jersey and New York.  Retired in Minneapolis.

John Mundinger

Thanks to those who posted links to articles that are not behind a paywall.  I think the link to the final report was the most helpful.  A few takeaways from that report are:

1.  The report assumes that many, though not necessarily all, persons who identify as transgender are, in fact, transgender.
2.  The report notes that the transgender phenomenon is not well understood.  More objective information is required in order to both understand the issue and to provide appropriate care for those who self identify as transgender.
3.  The report advocates a holistic approach to care, including both psychological and, as appropriate, medical.
4.  The report does not support the conclusion that gender non-conforming is a psychological disorder.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

David Garner

Quote from: JEdwards on April 11, 2024, 07:06:51 AM
Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on April 11, 2024, 01:03:05 AMFollowing the science is mostly theoretical. What about experiences with real people? What will you do when a 22-year-old you confirmed announces that she is transitioning and is using a new name - and his mother approves of it? What will you do when a 22-year-old whose wedding you did, whose wife you confirmed, announces that he is transitioning and is going by a new name? Do you pull out the science articles? Do you continue to be their pastor and a friend as you were before the announcements?

Because I have retired and moved, I'm no longer in direct contact with these people - except through Facebook. I still consider them friends. Should they show up in a church I'm serving, they would be invited to receive communion.
As I explain to students and residents, the rigor of evidence needed to justify a decision depends in large measure on the cost and risk of the proposed treatment. If one of my patients wants to try something unorthodox but basically harmless, I will usually go along, but I'm not going to order something risky or expensive (usually paid for by a third party) without solid evidence to support that decision.
While one can debate the value of using chosen pronouns—-even silly ones—- that is a whole other discussion than whether there is adequate evidence for the irreversible medical and surgical "treatments" regularly given to adolescents.

I think using ivermectin to treat COVID is quackery, but still more justifiable than a lot of what is being done to kids with gender dysphoria.

Peace,
Jon



It is obvious to anyone who is not utterly mired in the politics of it and/or scared to talk about it that so much of what is being passed as "teh scyunce" (TM) is actually just naked politics and silencing of dissent.  I said in another thread, in a few decades we'll look on these folks as people now view lobotomists, and rightly so.

It's similar with abortion, where you still to this day have people calling a fetus a "potential human," which just ignores all principles of biology and embryology.  They call it "science," but it's really just metaphysical and ethical arguments about "personhood" that are not scientific at all.
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Dan Fienen

Quote from: Charles Austin on April 11, 2024, 08:51:27 AMIs the objection that gender transformation is being done for teenagers, or is the objection that it is being done at all?
It varies, just as it varies whether you believe that babies can know that they are transgender, or that it doesn't actually exist at all. I am sure that there are those who object that gender transformation is done at all and deny that it is every really appropriate therapy. And there seem to those who are determined to make gender transformation as common as say tonsillectomies and rush to determine that adolescents and especially prepuberty children are transgender and begin permanent gender transformation as soon as possible.

Personally, from what I have read, I think that both extremes are mistaken. Gender dysphoria and the perception that one is the wrong gender has been observed for a long, long time. It was, however, until the last decade or so much rarer and generally has involved males feeling that they should have been females and presented in childhood not adolescence. The current epidemic of female adolescents presenting as transgender is pretty new, especially at these levels.

For me, the objection is that these permanent treatments (or temporary treatments that have not been demonstrated not to have long term effects) are being done to teenagers and that there seems in at least some cases a rush to diagnosis, especially by those who do not have adequate training to make such life altering diagnosis and without adequate consideration of alternative or additional diagnosis. Transgenderism has, it seems, become the go to diagnosis for any and all teenage angst. (Not to belittle teenage angst, adolescence is a difficult time for many and sympathetic care and even treatment is often indicated and should be offered.)

I am not an expert in these areas, but from what I have read, including those who are expert, it seems to me reasonable that there are those individuals who are transgender and who would benefit from some form of gender transformation or other treatment. True, God created us either male or female, but much has happened since then and none of us are just what God originally created humans to be. In some cases, gender transformation may well be indicated. My objection is that there seems to be a rush to diagnosis sometimes made for those without adequate training, the possibility that some of gender dysphoria being presented arises from other mental health difficulties that are not being considered, the possibility that some of the current epidemic of gender dysphoria results from social contagion, and that there seems to be a strong presumption that parents cannot and should not be trusted to be a part of the decision making process. Also, this whole thing has devolved from a medical issue to an ideological battleground. I fault both the anti-trans resistance and the pro-trans activists for making this more of a culture war front than a caring for troubled teens.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

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