Transgender care — shall we follow the science?

Started by JEdwards, April 10, 2024, 07:20:37 PM

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SomeoneWrites

Quote from: MaddogLutheran on April 11, 2024, 02:29:59 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on April 11, 2024, 02:27:25 PMok.  Thank you for calling people by their preferred pronouns.  That's a great step in the right direction.
Your thanks is not required.  Nor your approval.  That's a patronizing thing to say.

I'm still thankful.  There are others who are still struggling to do that.  It's a step in the right direction. 
LCMS raised
LCMS theology major
LCMS sem grad
Atheist

Dan Fienen

#46
Quote from: MaddogLutheran on April 11, 2024, 02:21:38 PMI wouldn't run afoul of the speech component of that, unlike Rowling.  I absolutely agree that biological men do not belong in women's intimate spaces, because it make some women feel unsafe.  That's what many believe gender affirming is.  I'm out.
Reading this post, I was especially struck by this paragraph. One component of the demand that men transitioning to women be considered and in all ways treated as women is concern that biological men, on average, grow up stronger than biological women. If you think that statement is genderist or sexist, I simply invite you to compare world and Olympic records for men and women in track and field events. The fastest, strongest, etc. men always beat the fastest, strongest, etc. women. That is not ideology, that is science. There seems to have been little research, or at least nothing yet conclusive, as to at what point transitioning between genders eliminates that physiological advantage, if it is ever eliminated. There is the real danger that instead of men's events and women's events we will have men's events and events for men who have transitioned with biological women either again sitting on the sidelines, or at the back of pack eating dust.

Funny, I have yet to hear of trans men demanding to be able to compete athletically with men. Only in sports where skill and finesse are at least as important as raw power do women of any sort compete directly with men. There have been women baseball pitchers. But in golf and tennis the genders are still separate. In golf, they compete on the same course, but women's holes are shorter. Could we be seeing the beginning of the end of sports participation for cis-women?

Title IX which ensured opportunities for collegiate sports programs for women will now be used to shut women out, or at least greatly reduce their opportunities, in favor of men transitioning to women but still enjoying the male physiological advantages. Sorry women, in the name of gender equality you lose.

But it is actually another component of this demand and the pushback against it that especially struck me. A part of the whole Woke and DEI concern if for people to have spaces where they feel safe. I remember after the whole Justice Bret Kavanaugh circus, Kavanaugh was invited to lecture at one of the prestigious law schools. There was considerable pushback against that and one part of that pushback to received serious consideration was that women students complained that they would not feel safe in his classes because of the allegations of sexual abuse during his confirmation hearings. Even if there had been found to be substance to the allegations, those offenses had been decades in the past and considerable evidence that his treatment of women during his professional life had all been respectful. There were no more recent allegations to suggest that he currently sexually assaulted women. Besides, they would be encountering Kavanaugh in groups, in public classrooms where such assaults would be extremely unlikely even if there were credible evidence that he indulged in such behavior. For these young women to feel unsafe in his classroom was not reasonable, yet their concerns were taken seriously.

Yet, for women to object that they felt unsafe with individuals who are still physiologically male (not having undergone sex change operations) in restrooms, locker rooms, women's intimate spaces (love that way of putting it), the concerns are brushed aside if not scorned although there have been instances where women have been sexually assaulted in such situations.  How respectful of women is that dismissal of their concerns?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Dan Fienen

Perhaps going forward in keeping with the idea that gender is not binary there should be at least three categories of athletic competition, males, transitioners, and non transitioning women.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

RF

Just curious, has anyone ever had gender with their spouse? 

That question kind of illustrates how stupid it is to use "gender" rather than sex.  Of course that is only my opinion based on God's Word for several thousand years rather than the progressive worldview. What do I know.

SomeoneWrites

Quote from: RF on April 11, 2024, 04:43:46 PMJust curious, has anyone ever had gender with their spouse? 

That question kind of illustrates how stupid it is to use "gender" rather than sex.  Of course that is only my opinion based on God's Word for several thousand years rather than the progressive worldview. What do I know.

Not so much.  This is not how language works.  But I do agree this is your opinion, based on your understanding of what you assent to as Scripture. 
LCMS raised
LCMS theology major
LCMS sem grad
Atheist

DCharlton

Quote from: SomeoneWrites on April 11, 2024, 12:26:51 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 11, 2024, 12:20:58 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on April 11, 2024, 08:51:27 AMIs the objection that gender transformation is being done for teenagers, or is the objection that it is being done at all?

Conversion Therapy has been banned in many states.  It would logically follow that if one is opposed to Conversion Therapy for minors, one would be opposed the Gender Transition Therapy/Surgery.

I believe that adults should be able to receive both Conversion Therapy and Gender Transition Therapy if they choose and can find a clinician/clinic that will provide it.

This is not an appropriate comparison.  If they identify as Homosexual, one shouldn't convert them to heterosexual.  If one identifies as a gender, they should be affirmed in that regard.  It would be inappropriate to try and convert their mind to be what they don't identify as. 

It is appropriate.  It compares the question of informed consent for minors. Is a minor mature enough to consent to Conversion Therapy?  Is a minor mature enough to consent to Gender Transition Therapy and Surgery.  It both cases, the question is the ability to consent. 

I'm sure you will try to say that in the case of Conversion Therapy, the minor is forced to undergo it against their will.  That is not always the case.  At least one state that I know of forbids Conversion Therapy, even when the minor wants it. Neither is it always the case that minors who identify as another sex are never pressured to undergo hormone therapy and surgery.  There are many de-transitioners who report that they felt pressure to stay the course to full transition when they got cold feet. 
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

SomeoneWrites

Quote from: DCharlton on April 11, 2024, 05:15:02 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on April 11, 2024, 12:26:51 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 11, 2024, 12:20:58 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on April 11, 2024, 08:51:27 AMIs the objection that gender transformation is being done for teenagers, or is the objection that it is being done at all?

Conversion Therapy has been banned in many states.  It would logically follow that if one is opposed to Conversion Therapy for minors, one would be opposed the Gender Transition Therapy/Surgery.

I believe that adults should be able to receive both Conversion Therapy and Gender Transition Therapy if they choose and can find a clinician/clinic that will provide it.

This is not an appropriate comparison.  If they identify as Homosexual, one shouldn't convert them to heterosexual.  If one identifies as a gender, they should be affirmed in that regard.  It would be inappropriate to try and convert their mind to be what they don't identify as. 

It is appropriate.  It compares the question of informed consent for minors. Is a minor mature enough to consent to Conversion Therapy?  Is a minor mature enough to consent to Gender Transition Therapy and Surgery.  It both cases, the question is the ability to consent. 

I'm sure you will try to say that in the case of Conversion Therapy, the minor is forced to undergo it against their will.  That is not always the case.  At least one state that I know of forbids Conversion Therapy, even when the minor wants it. Neither is it always the case that minors who identify as another sex are never pressured to undergo hormone therapy and surgery.  There are many de-transitioners who report that they felt pressure to stay the course to full transition when they got cold feet.

I was speaking about adults. 
LCMS raised
LCMS theology major
LCMS sem grad
Atheist

Dan Fienen

#52
Quote from: John Mundinger on April 11, 2024, 10:11:25 AM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on April 11, 2024, 10:06:17 AMI fault both the anti-trans resistance and the pro-trans activists for making this more of a culture war front than a caring for troubled teens.

Generally, I agree with that observation, Pr. Fienen.  However, I think "troubled teens" is not the most constructive way to talk about youth who self identify as transgender.
One of the heart rending arguments in favor teenage gender transitioning both hormonal and surgical is as suicide prevention. It is asserted that trans teens are more likely to commit suicide if they don't receive this treatment. If being suicidal isn't being "troubled" what is?
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

John Mundinger

Quote from: Dan Fienen on April 11, 2024, 06:04:35 PM
Quote from: John Mundinger on April 11, 2024, 10:11:25 AM
Quote from: Dan Fienen on April 11, 2024, 10:06:17 AMI fault both the anti-trans resistance and the pro-trans activists for making this more of a culture war front than a caring for troubled teens.

Generally, I agree with that observation, Pr. Fienen.  However, I think "troubled teens" is not the most constructive way to talk about youth who self identify as transgender.
One of the heart rending arguments in favor teenage gender transitioning both hormonal and surgical is as suicide prevention. It is asserted that trans teens are more likely to commit suicide if they don't receive this treatment. If being suicidal isn't being "troubled" what is?

Teens with suicidal ideations are troubled.  But that wasn't the point of my comment.  It had more to do with failing to understand the difference between self-identifying as transgender and having gender dysphoria.  The latter is a psychological diagnosis.  The former is not.  And, the stigma associated with being transgender is a factor that contributes to gender dysphoria - with or without suicidal ideation.

Gender identity is a complex issue that we do not understand very well.  Given all the uncertainty, it seems to me that the better approach is to begin with the assumption that teens who self-identify as transgender have a better understand of who they are than do you either you or I and relate with them accordingly rather than assuming that they have a mental illness and just don't know any better.  Then proceed with a deliberative course of action.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Robert Johnson

Quote from: John Mundinger on April 11, 2024, 11:12:58 AMOne point on which I think both of us can agree.  There is a lot we do not know about the transgender issue.  There is need for more objective information on the subject.

Meanwhile, stop doing permanent things to people who often regret it later when it cannot be fixed.

DCharlton

Quote from: SomeoneWrites on April 11, 2024, 05:27:26 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 11, 2024, 05:15:02 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on April 11, 2024, 12:26:51 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 11, 2024, 12:20:58 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on April 11, 2024, 08:51:27 AMIs the objection that gender transformation is being done for teenagers, or is the objection that it is being done at all?

Conversion Therapy has been banned in many states.  It would logically follow that if one is opposed to Conversion Therapy for minors, one would be opposed the Gender Transition Therapy/Surgery.

I believe that adults should be able to receive both Conversion Therapy and Gender Transition Therapy if they choose and can find a clinician/clinic that will provide it.

This is not an appropriate comparison.  If they identify as Homosexual, one shouldn't convert them to heterosexual.  If one identifies as a gender, they should be affirmed in that regard.  It would be inappropriate to try and convert their mind to be what they don't identify as. 

It is appropriate.  It compares the question of informed consent for minors. Is a minor mature enough to consent to Conversion Therapy?  Is a minor mature enough to consent to Gender Transition Therapy and Surgery.  It both cases, the question is the ability to consent. 

I'm sure you will try to say that in the case of Conversion Therapy, the minor is forced to undergo it against their will.  That is not always the case.  At least one state that I know of forbids Conversion Therapy, even when the minor wants it. Neither is it always the case that minors who identify as another sex are never pressured to undergo hormone therapy and surgery.  There are many de-transitioners who report that they felt pressure to stay the course to full transition when they got cold feet.

I was speaking about adults. 

Well, in that case, your reply to me was a non-sequitur.  I was talking about minors. 
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Matt Hummel

Matt Hummel


"The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks."

― J.R.R. Tolkien

John Mundinger

#57
Quote from: Robert Johnson on April 11, 2024, 08:04:32 PM
Quote from: John Mundinger on April 11, 2024, 11:12:58 AMOne point on which I think both of us can agree.  There is a lot we do not know about the transgender issue.  There is need for more objective information on the subject.

Meanwhile, stop doing permanent things to people who often regret it later when it cannot be fixed.

Meanwhile, proceed with caution.  If you are going to default to anecdotal accounts, there are many more examples of the permanent damage that would have been done had gender affirming care been denied.

And, please note that those who complete suicide to not have the opportunity to regret it later.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

JEdwards

Quote from: John Mundinger on April 11, 2024, 08:38:17 PM
Quote from: Robert Johnson on April 11, 2024, 08:04:32 PM
Quote from: John Mundinger on April 11, 2024, 11:12:58 AMOne point on which I think both of us can agree.  There is a lot we do not know about the transgender issue.  There is need for more objective information on the subject.

Meanwhile, stop doing permanent things to people who often regret it later when it cannot be fixed.

Meanwhile, proceed with caution.  If you are going to default to anecdotal accounts, there are many more examples of the permanent damage that would have been done had gender affirming care been denied.
The whole point of the Cass report is that your assertion is speculative, and current data are insufficient to verify or refute it. More data are needed, which is why it is regrettable that the Gender Identity Development Service in the UK declined to cooperate with Dr Cass. As recounted in the BMJ editorial linked above:

The Cass review attempted to work with the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) and the NHS adult gender services to "fill some of the gaps in follow-up data for the approximately 9000 young people who have been through GIDS to develop a stronger evidence base." However, despite encouragement from NHS England, "the necessary cooperation was not forthcoming." Professionals withholding data from a national inquiry seems hard to imagine, but it is what happened.

Peace,
Jon

SomeoneWrites

Quote from: DCharlton on April 11, 2024, 08:11:37 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on April 11, 2024, 05:27:26 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 11, 2024, 05:15:02 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on April 11, 2024, 12:26:51 PM
Quote from: DCharlton on April 11, 2024, 12:20:58 PM
Quote from: Charles Austin on April 11, 2024, 08:51:27 AMIs the objection that gender transformation is being done for teenagers, or is the objection that it is being done at all?

Conversion Therapy has been banned in many states.  It would logically follow that if one is opposed to Conversion Therapy for minors, one would be opposed the Gender Transition Therapy/Surgery.

I believe that adults should be able to receive both Conversion Therapy and Gender Transition Therapy if they choose and can find a clinician/clinic that will provide it.

This is not an appropriate comparison.  If they identify as Homosexual, one shouldn't convert them to heterosexual.  If one identifies as a gender, they should be affirmed in that regard.  It would be inappropriate to try and convert their mind to be what they don't identify as. 

It is appropriate.  It compares the question of informed consent for minors. Is a minor mature enough to consent to Conversion Therapy?  Is a minor mature enough to consent to Gender Transition Therapy and Surgery.  It both cases, the question is the ability to consent. 

I'm sure you will try to say that in the case of Conversion Therapy, the minor is forced to undergo it against their will.  That is not always the case.  At least one state that I know of forbids Conversion Therapy, even when the minor wants it. Neither is it always the case that minors who identify as another sex are never pressured to undergo hormone therapy and surgery.  There are many de-transitioners who report that they felt pressure to stay the course to full transition when they got cold feet.

I was speaking about adults. 

Well, in that case, your reply to me was a non-sequitur.  I was talking about minors. 

not really, because conversion therapy is harmful across the board.  not the same thing
LCMS raised
LCMS theology major
LCMS sem grad
Atheist

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