Interesting Developments in Wittenberg

[peter_speckhard]

And, Peter, I really believe things will get better in Wittenberg when David Mahsman, whom I consider a friend, takes up residence there in the Fall. I think SELK ( the LC-MS partner church in the region) might learn something about inter-Lutheran cooperation.
If I were to come to St. Louis as a mission developer and say that mine was to be the "true" Lutheran mission because every Lutheran church already there was not "Lutheran," how would that work?

If the churches in St. Louis all identified themselves as Lutheran/Reformed union churches, you might have a lot of success attracting new members to your mission church pretty quickly if St. Louis is at all like I remember it.

[revklak]

Buy a subscription.

They still SELL those?  People still BUY them?  I thought they just passed them out for free to clergy and published a few extras for synod assemblies.   

[revklak]

Not quite the same. The LC-MS and SELK bumbled the whole inauguration of the Wittenberg effort by using language saying there were no "true" Lutherans left in Wittenberg, and similar gaffes. It took, I suspect a year or more of negotiations and fence-mending with the EKD, the primary Lutheran/Reformed body there, to overcome the initial dust-up.

Depending upon where one puts the bar (standard - i.e. 1530, 1580, 1650, 1859, 1962, etc), one could argue there are no "true" Lutherans left anywhere. 

[Pr. Jerry Kliner]

A few thoughts...

One, I agree that this thread should NOT be a competition between the dueling developments between the LCMS/SELK center in Wittenberg and whatever the "ELCA" is doing in Wittenberg.  I don't know why, every time there's LCMS news, there has to be a response of "Well, see what we're doing and doing it so much better..."

Two, if Charles or some other "ELCA" type could please tell me where the money is going to come from to keep the "ELCA" Wittenberg project afloat is going to come from, I'd appreciate it.  I suspect the "ELCA" will have to abandon it's Wittenberg project within two years due to domestic budgetary shortfalls, so the "duel" should be short-lived.

Thrid, as for "Inter-Lutheran" co-operation, well... the CWA pretty well said that the "ELCA" is not interested what Lutherans have to say to them, so why are you so interested in now co-operating with Lutherans now?   And can it even be said to be within the realm of "Inter-LUTHERAN" co-operation when one of the parties has ceased to live and act like Lutherans?  If anything, the relationship between the "ELCA" and most Lutherans has now shifted from "Inter-Lutheran" to something more along the lines of ecumenism. 

Finally, why would the "ELCA" care about a presence in Wittenberg?  They just flushed our Confessional understanding and the traditional understandings of the Church, so why would they bother maintaining a center in Wittenberg.  This is a perfect non-sequitor to me.

Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

[George Erdner]

A few thoughts...

One, I agree that this thread should NOT be a competition between the dueling developments between the LCMS/SELK center in Wittenberg and whatever the "ELCA" is doing in Wittenberg.  I don't know why, every time there's LCMS news, there has to be a response of "Well, see what we're doing and doing it so much better..."

Two, if Charles or some other "ELCA" type could please tell me where the money is going to come from to keep the "ELCA" Wittenberg project afloat is going to come from, I'd appreciate it.  I suspect the "ELCA" will have to abandon it's Wittenberg project within two years due to domestic budgetary shortfalls, so the "duel" should be short-lived.

Thrid, as for "Inter-Lutheran" co-operation, well... the CWA pretty well said that the "ELCA" is not interested what Lutherans have to say to them, so why are you so interested in now co-operating with Lutherans now?   And can it even be said to be within the realm of "Inter-LUTHERAN" co-operation when one of the parties has ceased to live and act like Lutherans?  If anything, the relationship between the "ELCA" and most Lutherans has now shifted from "Inter-Lutheran" to something more along the lines of ecumenism. 

Finally, why would the "ELCA" care about a presence in Wittenberg?  They just flushed our Confessional understanding and the traditional understandings of the Church, so why would they bother maintaining a center in Wittenberg.  This is a perfect non-sequitor to me.

Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

Remember, Phillipists don't care about doctrine or theology, they care about unity and working together. That means that Phillipists don't recognize arguments based on doctrine or theology. In order to maintain a Phillipist view of church and church "togetherness", one must mentally filter out and disregard any unpleasant facts about how differences in doctrine or theology arre barriers to unity.

[Charles_Austin]

Pastor Kliner writes.... well, he writes a lot of things regarding the ELCA's interest in inter-Lutheran matters and its presence in Wittenberg.

I muse:
If you knew more about the recent history of the church in that region and what is going on today, and if you took some time to investigate and reflect, rather than just offer the usual potshots, you might be quite impressed with how the ELCA is working with the German churches to strengthen mission and ministry and take advantage of the Reformation anniversary to proclaim God's word.
But grit your teeth. The German church in that region is a "union" church; so if that sinks your boat, you're going to have a tough time.
And... for folks with the attitudes that seem to prevail in this forum, I ask: Is there the slightest possibility that somehow, somewhere, sometime, perhaps even accidentally, the ELCA might be doing something right, or at least close to right?
(I know that's a wild thought, but...)

[Dadoo]

Pastor Kliner writes.... well, he writes a lot of things regarding the ELCA's interest in inter-Lutheran matters and its presence in Wittenberg.

I muse:
If you knew more about the recent history of the church in that region and what is going on today, and if you took some time to investigate and reflect, rather than just offer the usual potshots, you might be quite impressed with how the ELCA is working with the German churches to strengthen mission and ministry and take advantage of the Reformation anniversary to proclaim God's word.
But grit your teeth. The German church in that region is a "union" church; so if that sinks your boat, you're going to have a tough time.
And... for folks with the attitudes that seem to prevail in this forum, I ask: Is there the slightest possibility that somehow, somewhere, sometime, perhaps even accidentally, the ELCA might be doing something right, or at least close to right?
(I know that's a wild thought, but...)

To be honest the Lord Mayor of Wittenberg could not care less who comes to visit and stay in the converted girls school that now is a modern retreat center with class rooms and amenities into which he hopes to book groups that want to come to study in his fair city. He, a project manager, and the architect who is heading up the restoration of historic Wittenberg visited every University, college, and seminary that had the word Lutheran in its name last February. The trio used the director of the ELCA affiliated center as their translator for the trip but they went on  a 4 week tour of the US to invite group study in Witt. The SELK- EKD- VELKD- UKD- LCMS- ELCA- FLCA- LCMC- MIC- KEY - MOUSE letter salad distinctions don't interest the man.  If one of those institutions lost a letter or two he would still be in their faces to drum up business.

THe beneficiaries of the Witt projects are the Wittenbergers. These folks live on their feet.

[BrotherBoris]

And, Peter, I really believe things will get better in Wittenberg when David Mahsman, whom I consider a friend, takes up residence there in the Fall. I think SELK ( the LC-MS partner church in the region) might learn something about inter-Lutheran cooperation.
If I were to come to St. Louis as a mission developer and say that mine was to be the "true" Lutheran mission because every Lutheran church already there was not "Lutheran," how would that work?

If the churches in St. Louis all identified themselves as Lutheran/Reformed union churches, you might have a lot of success attracting new members to your mission church pretty quickly if St. Louis is at all like I remember it.

The Reformed are like vampires. They are horrified by the sign of the cross, literally run away from holy water (I wonder if it burns them?) and suck any good ceremonial out of a congregation. No wonder they dress in that dreary black robe of death. God forbid we should have something beautiful, colorful and worthy of the King of Kings like a Gold colored Chasuble or a Gold plated chalice instead of some plastic, disposable Nyquil cup for the Sacrament.

[Keith Falk]

And, Peter, I really believe things will get better in Wittenberg when David Mahsman, whom I consider a friend, takes up residence there in the Fall. I think SELK ( the LC-MS partner church in the region) might learn something about inter-Lutheran cooperation.
If I were to come to St. Louis as a mission developer and say that mine was to be the "true" Lutheran mission because every Lutheran church already there was not "Lutheran," how would that work?

If the churches in St. Louis all identified themselves as Lutheran/Reformed union churches, you might have a lot of success attracting new members to your mission church pretty quickly if St. Louis is at all like I remember it.

The Reformed are like vampires. They are horrified by the sign of the cross, literally run away from holy water (I wonder if it burns them?) and suck any good ceremonial out of a congregation. No wonder they dress in that dreary black robe of death. God forbid we should have something beautiful, colorful and worthy of the King of Kings like a Gold colored Chasuble or a Gold plated chalice instead of some plastic, disposable Nyquil cup for the Sacrament.

Hi-larious.  Thanks, BrotherBoris!

[BrotherBoris]

You are most welcome, Rev. Falk!   

[George Erdner]

the ELCA is working with the German churches to strengthen mission and ministry and take advantage of the Reformation anniversary to proclaim God's word.

The thing is, they don't much care about what the mission is, or what the ministry entails, and they don't much care if God's word is proclaimed accurately or not, so long as there are many voices speaking together. Or not even together, just speaking simultaneously.

Thank God the Apostle Paul wasn't a Phillipist, or the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church would include full fellowship with the worshippers of Jupiter or Zeus.

[Charles_Austin]

Let's start a lottery to see how many times the word "Philipist" appears in Mr. Erdner's postings and then try to find out if he has a clear idea of what it might mean.

[Pr. Jerry Kliner]

So let's see...

Charles didn't answer my question of how the (so-called) "ELCA" plans to continue funding their Wittenberg center when they are facing at least a projected 30% decrease in "mission support" in the next couple of years (a conservative estimate, I'd say...)...

He also didn't answer my question of "why" in the world the "ELCA" cares to have a presence in Wittenberg given the disregard that the "ELCA" has shown for her confessional basis...

But he did confirm the fact the the "ELCA" is involved with a "union" church, as opposed to a clearly Lutheran body, in their Wittenberg project, thereby adding more weight to my assertion that the "ELCA" is in fact, lying with their name, certainly not being "Lutheran" in substance nor in deed.

And how about this, Charles...  WHEN (or perhaps, more to the point IF) the "ELCA" does something "right," then I will commend her.  IF or WHEN the "ELCA" turns from her error and repents of the wrong she has done, IF and/or WHEN the "ELCA" returns to the holy, catholic, and apostolic Faith, THEN AND ONLY THEN will I stand up and commend her and welcome her back among the faithful.

Until then... ANATHEMA!

Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

[Rev. Matthew J. Uttenreither]

And, Peter, I really believe things will get better in Wittenberg when David Mahsman, whom I consider a friend, takes up residence there in the Fall. I think SELK ( the LC-MS partner church in the region) might learn something about inter-Lutheran cooperation.
If I were to come to St. Louis as a mission developer and say that mine was to be the "true" Lutheran mission because every Lutheran church already there was not "Lutheran," how would that work?

If the churches in St. Louis all identified themselves as Lutheran/Reformed union churches, you might have a lot of success attracting new members to your mission church pretty quickly if St. Louis is at all like I remember it.

The Reformed are like vampires. They are horrified by the sign of the cross, literally run away from holy water (I wonder if it burns them?) and suck any good ceremonial out of a congregation. No wonder they dress in that dreary black robe of death. God forbid we should have something beautiful, colorful and worthy of the King of Kings like a Gold colored Chasuble or a Gold plated chalice instead of some plastic, disposable Nyquil cup for the Sacrament.

LOL, thanks Brother Boris.

[George Erdner]

Let's start a lottery to see how many times the word "Philipist" appears in Mr. Erdner's postings and then try to find out if he has a clear idea of what it might mean.

Here's a start, with emphasis added:

Though there were numerous controversies at this time, one of the more important ones was the spread of Calvinist teaching among the Philippist group.  They had increasingly adopted Calvin’s teachings on the real presence in the Eucharist, and Calvin’s teaching on the two natures, divine and human, in Christ.  Calvin’s positions were in opposition to Luther’s on these issues.  The reason these men were called Crypto-Calvinists (hidden or secret Calvinists) is because they continually claimed adherence to the Augsburg Confession.  The problem was that they adhered to a 1540 edition of the Augsburg Confession that Melanchthon substantially altered in order to make it acceptable to the Calvinists.  This trick was not easily or immediately recognized by many laymen, princes or otherwise.

The heart of this struggle between the Philippists and the Gnesio-Lutherans was in Saxony where the Lutheran Reformation started.  And at first, the Philippists were gaining ground.  By the 1570's Wittenberg was for all practical purposes “Calvinized” by the Philippist clergy and theologians.  Orthodox theologians and bishops from all over Germany, and especially in the north, uncovered this deception in Electoral Saxony, but Elector August of Saxony was genuinely gullible and blind to the deceit.  Elector August wanted to defend his universities and theologians against those whom he thought were fanatics and troublemakers, the Gnesio-Lutherans.  Elector August believed the Philippists that they were nothing but faithful adherents to the Augsburg Confession.

However, in 1574 the triumphant Philippists overstepped themselves.  They published a book called Exegesis Perspicua.  This book explained their position on the Lord’s Supper.  But for the first time, their clearly Calvinist teachings were explained so clearly that everyone could see that it was in fact, Calvinism.  Even Elector August’s eyes were finally opened.  Elector August also uncovered a conspiracy by some of the Philippist theologians to put Calvinist prayer books in his wife’s hands, in order to shape her beliefs.  The theory being, if they can win the wife, the husband (Elector August) would fall into line.  Elector August was outraged at the deception.  This spelled the end for the Philippists in Saxony.

Source: http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu_WV86FKZHEAQUJXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzZmpjOTdsBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA0g0MTBfMTE4/SIG=1241u3joj/EXP=1252214037/**http%3a//saintbonifacelutheran.org/Phillipists.doc

They were Lutheran schismatics who pretended to be Lutherans but who were actually Calvinists. They also called for full communion between all Protestants, regardless of what they believed.

By your statements in favor of unity, and your constant attempts to support the bogus statements of the ELCA that there are no serious differences in understanding between the Lutherans and the Reformed, you've identified yourself as being a Crypto-Calvinists. You pretend to support the ELCA as a Lutheran body, just as the Crypto-Calvinists pretended to be Lutherans. But your statements reveal your true beliefs and understanding. In another thread, I make references to politicians called "RINO's", meaning Republicans In Name Only. I suspect that the term LINO might be appropriate to describe someone who pretends to be a Lutheran, and pretends to accept the Augsburg Confession, but whose expressions of his own personal beliefs indicate otherwise.

Is that an accurate description of Phillipists? Can you post something better, or will you just dismiss what I've posted?