Interesting Developments in Wittenberg

[Charles_Austin]

Mr. Erdner writes to me, after posting a document:
Is that an accurate description of Phillipists?
I respond:
Actually, no.

Mr. Erdner writes:
Can you post something better, or will you just dismiss what I've posted?
I respond:
Perhaps, but I'd rather just dismiss this.

[Charles_Austin]

Pastor Kliner writes:
And how about this, Charles...  WHEN (or perhaps, more to the point IF) the "ELCA" does something "right," then I will commend her.  IF or WHEN the "ELCA" turns from her error and repents of the wrong she has done, IF and/or WHEN the "ELCA" returns to the holy, catholic, and apostolic Faith, THEN AND ONLY THEN will I stand up and commend her and welcome her back among the faithful.
Until then... ANATHEMA!

I note:
And the Pope/Patriarch/Council from Hurricane, West Virginia, has spoken.

[Pr. Jerry Kliner]

You have me confused with someone else, Charles...

I have never sought to claim such a lofty title nor have I ever seen myself as such.

I am a small cleric, serving a small parish, in a small Synod.  My colleagues did not select me to attend the CWA, I hold no ecclesiastical office or title beyond the Pastor of a Parish, which is sufficient for me.

But I tell you again, as I have told you and Brian before, the communion has been broken, not by me but by the "ELCA" that has chosen to turn her back on the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.  I am preaching and teaching as I always have.  The one that has moved and spoken are the self-styled "primates" who decided that 2000+ years of Christian teaching and the Lutheran Confessions were not sufficient and could hence be disregarded.  They are the ones who have created new doctrine out of thin air, not the Word of God.  I have repeatedly admitted my frailty and falibility.  O, that the denominational powers would do so!  It is the obligation of the faithful to rebuke and call to repentance those who have wandered away.  And the "ELCA" has done so, and you seem to demand some sort of "ex cathedra" obeisance, that I commend the "ELCA" no matter how poor or faithless her decision making and decision making processes are. 

Elvis has left the building.  I am merely announcing the fact.

Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS
 

[Brian Stoffregen]

But I tell you again, as I have told you and Brian before, the communion has been broken, not by me but by the "ELCA" that has chosen to turn her back on the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

Apparently you didn't feel that way when the ALC/LCA voted to ordain women; when we decided that nearly 2000 years of Christian teaching was not sufficient and could be disregarded.

I am preaching and teaching as I always have.

So am I, and I don't plan to change. I don't know about you, but I have never preached a sermon centered on homosexuality. I have and will continue to preach against promiscuity and adultery and abusive and exploitive sex and call such people to repent. Our recent decisions changes none of that.

[Pr. Jerry Kliner]

But I tell you again, as I have told you and Brian before, the communion has been broken, not by me but by the "ELCA" that has chosen to turn her back on the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

Apparently you didn't feel that way when the ALC/LCA voted to ordain women; when we decided that nearly 2000 years of Christian teaching was not sufficient and could be disregarded.

I am preaching and teaching as I always have.

So am I, and I don't plan to change. I don't know about you, but I have never preached a sermon centered on homosexuality. I have and will continue to preach against promiscuity and adultery and abusive and exploitive sex and call such people to repent. Our recent decisions changes none of that.

You know what I find amazing, Brian?  I find it amazing that you, who are supposedly an advocate of the Ordination of Women, are so quick to go to this line of argumentation.  Former PB Chilstrom did it too...  Why I find it amazing is, by linking the two arguments, you are actually harming the cause (of women's ordination) rather than promoting it.  By forcing the link between the ordination of women and the slide of the ELCA into our current mess, do you not think that some are out there wondering just how wise the decision to ordain women was and if any new ecclesial body might reconsider that decision?  FWIW, the "ELCA" (2009) CWA proved correct all those who were dismissed as "hysterical crack-pots" when they predicted that, by ordaining women, the ALC and LCA would begin an inexorable slide into relativsim.

For myself, the decision to ordain women was before my time.  It was the established fact when I entered the ELCA and for many years I have been a vocal and agressive advocate for the ordination of women.  But this current debate has caused me to rethink the issue.  I am not arguing that women are not capable pastors nor would I argue that women are not gifted theologians and teachers.  But it does seem clear to me that the decision, and more importantly the decision-making process by which the decision was reached, to ordain women did set the stage and the logic for our current state of affairs.  If it were to be reconsidered, I would have to counsel against making that decision.  There.  You have me on record.  Perhaps fortuneately, I am not the one who makes that call.

As to your final point, I suspect that sadly it's true.  I find amazing consistency in your line of advancing an agenda at the expense of all else.  In the relatively short time I have known of you and your work, I can say that you have been... consistent.

Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

[Lutheranistic]

George notes:

In another thread, I make references to politicians called "RINO's", meaning Republicans In Name Only. I suspect that the term LINO might be appropriate to describe someone who pretends to be a Lutheran, and pretends to accept the Augsburg Confession, but whose expressions of his own personal beliefs indicate otherwise.

There is a northern suburb of the Twin Cities where refuge might be found for these folks:
http://www.ci.lino-lakes.mn.us/

On a map, it's left of Centerville. I couldn't make that up.

[The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS]

The Reformed are like vampires. They are horrified by the sign of the cross, literally run away from holy water (I wonder if it burns them?) and suck any good ceremonial out of a congregation. No wonder they dress in that dreary black robe of death. God forbid we should have something beautiful, colorful and worthy of the King of Kings like a Gold colored Chasuble or a Gold plated chalice instead of some plastic, disposable Nyquil cup for the Sacrament.

Oh, brother Boris, that is just too good.  If you don't forbid me from doing so, I may find myself unable to resist the temptation to post it to my blog.

Pax, Steven+

[Brian Stoffregen]

For myself, the decision to ordain women was before my time.  It was the established fact when I entered the ELCA and for many years I have been a vocal and agressive advocate for the ordination of women.

Even if the decision was before your time, it didn't drive you out of the ELCA even though it was contrary to nearly 2000 years of tradition. Perhaps 20-30 years into the future, should one of your children decide to become an ELCA minister, our present decision will seem as normal as women's ordination did when you were called into the ministry.

[Richard Johnson]

For myself, the decision to ordain women was before my time.  It was the established fact when I entered the ELCA and for many years I have been a vocal and agressive advocate for the ordination of women.

Even if the decision was before your time, it didn't drive you out of the ELCA even though it was contrary to nearly 2000 years of tradition. Perhaps 20-30 years into the future, should one of your children decide to become an ELCA minister, our present decision will seem as normal as women's ordination did when you were called into the ministry.

That would assume, of course, that there will be an ELCA in 20 or 30 years.

History makes it unlikely.

ALC lifespan: 27 years
LCA lifespan: 25 years
AELC lifespan: 11 years
Average:  18 years
ELCA age at present: 21 years
You know what they say about age of death of parents being a predictor of your own age at death . . .

I mean, I'm just saying . . .

[The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS]

Apparently you didn't feel that way when the ALC/LCA voted to ordain women; when we decided that nearly 2000 years of Christian teaching was not sufficient and could be disregarded.

I was too young to vote in 1970. 

How did I feel about it?  Well, I didn't have strong feelings either way.  The way the argument was put to my 11-year-old mind in the LCA was that we had theologically educated women, the church didn't know what else to do with them, they were capable of doing the job, there were faithful women leaders in the Bible -- so why not? 

The problem is, the Holy Ministry is not a job, and leadership in the church is not the same as the Holy Ministry.  I recognized that long before I started the "professional preparation" process in the LCA.  Curiously, no one ever point blank asked me through 4 years of ELCA candidacy, and I'm pretty sure some of my classmates could read the signs.  But it's been the great unspoken topic throughout the ELCA's history. 

Seeing that, I've always been very, very careful since ordination of how I expressed by conviction that the 1970 vote was wrong and that women cannot be ordained into the Holy Ministry.  Not that I do not honor or respect the pastoral ministry of some of my female colleagues, especially those in the Society of the Holy Trinity (where my perspective is very much in the minority).  It is the LCA/ALC/ELCA practices on the Ministry that has put these women in their difficult position.  They have sought to serve the church in the most faithful way the church would permit.  Some have done very well at it, and I frankly hold myself in awe of some of them.

The "bound conscience" clauses in the Ministry Recommendations and the Social Statement are, fundamentally flawed.  Yet, perhaps strangely, they have also given me the freedom to be released of the shackles of silence on the ordination of women.  I will be civilized and polite about it, I will work with faithful female pastors to fullest extent I possibly can, and I will even defend them from those who would attack the Office that they have been put into by this church. 

But the ordination of women by Lutheran churches was (and is) a mistake.  Furthermore it is an ecumenical dead end.  And all this is revealed most clearly when the ordination of practicing homosexuals is always first defended by pointing to the ordination of women.

Someday, the ELCA or its successors will have to deal with it.  I hope we will be able to do a better job of that in the future than we did with sexuality these last 21+ years.

Pax, Steven+

[James Gustafson]

...snip...

For myself, the decision to ordain women was before my time.  It was the established fact when I entered the ELCA and for many years I have been a vocal and aggressively advocate for the ordination of women.  But this current debate has caused me to rethink the issue.  I am not arguing that women are not capable pastors nor would I argue that women are not gifted theologians and teachers.  But it does seem clear to me that the decision, and more importantly the decision-making process by which the decision was reached, to ordain women did set the stage and the logic for our current state of affairs.  If it were to be reconsidered, I would have to counsel against making that decision.  There.  You have me on record.  Perhaps fortunately, I am not the one who makes that call.

...snip...

Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

I snipped your post down to the specific part I'm commenting on.  I've suddenly found myself in the same thought processes as you've outlined there.  While I'm looking for a new Lutheran home for me and my family I assumed I would be looking for a place where a woman might be pastor.  Turns out that may be easier said then done, but I've also begun to wonder how hard I should look for such a place anyway if in twenty years they too might develop a laxity for adhering to biblical structures of other kinds.  I've asked my wife how she felt about it, with her being a manager and leader where she works (banking industry) I just assumed that it would be important to her to find another affiliation where women might lead.  Turns out I was wrong.  I'm a little surprised to tell the truth but she thinks women should be able to vote and help make management decisions, but as to Pastoring and whatnot, she's open.  So I think we'll be looking closely at a AFLC church and possibly an ARC church that is nearby.

[RevKidd]

The Reformed are like vampires. They are horrified by the sign of the cross, literally run away from holy water (I wonder if it burns them?) and suck any good ceremonial out of a congregation. No wonder they dress in that dreary black robe of death. God forbid we should have something beautiful, colorful and worthy of the King of Kings like a Gold colored Chasuble or a Gold plated chalice instead of some plastic, disposable Nyquil cup for the Sacrament.

Oh, brother Boris, that is just too good.  If you don't forbid me from doing so, I may find myself unable to resist the temptation to post it to my blog.

Pax, Steven+

 
ROFL I just had to add that was classic!

[BrotherBoris]

The Reformed are like vampires. They are horrified by the sign of the cross, literally run away from holy water (I wonder if it burns them?) and suck any good ceremonial out of a congregation. No wonder they dress in that dreary black robe of death. God forbid we should have something beautiful, colorful and worthy of the King of Kings like a Gold colored Chasuble or a Gold plated chalice instead of some plastic, disposable Nyquil cup for the Sacrament.

Oh, brother Boris, that is just too good.  If you don't forbid me from doing so, I may find myself unable to resist the temptation to post it to my blog.

Pax, Steven+

I am glad I could provide a brief moment of levity and humor.    Things have been going very roughly for me lately and humor always helps me get through it.










 
ROFL I just had to add that was classic!

[Mel Harris]

Charles didn't answer my question of how the (so-called) "ELCA" plans to continue funding their Wittenberg center when they are facing at least a projected 30% decrease in "mission support" in the next couple of years (a conservative estimate, I'd say...)...

While it is not from Pastor Austin, we now have at least a partial answer to this question at:

http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Churchwide-Organization/Communication-Services/News/Releases.aspx?a=4332

Mel Harris

[Dadoo]

Charles didn't answer my question of how the (so-called) "ELCA" plans to continue funding their Wittenberg center when they are facing at least a projected 30% decrease in "mission support" in the next couple of years (a conservative estimate, I'd say...)...

While it is not from Pastor Austin, we now have at least a partial answer to this question at:

http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Churchwide-Organization/Communication-Services/News/Releases.aspx?a=4332

Mel Harris

While I am sad to see the ELCA presence diminish this is not a disaster. Our partner churches in Germany can certainly fill some of the gaps left by this. The Global missions department has to do some cutting somewhere and this would seem a logical place.