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Author Topic: Baptism and Eucharist  (Read 4607 times)

Mike in Maryland

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Re: Baptism and Eucharist
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2005, 10:16:55 AM »
In reply to Tom, I was also taught by my LCA (formerly Augustana) intern supervisor, that there comes a time in the life of some elderly when they are beyond receiving Communion.  My rule of thumb has been when they are no longer able to pray the Lord's Prayer.  As Tom observed, this is so ingrained this is one of the last vestiges of connection to this world mentally to go.  In practice, there have been very few occasions in the past 30 years when I've seen someone get to that stage.  If they do, I simply pray with them and commend them to the grace of God.
As for those who are mentally challenged, the rule of thumb is to instruct them as far as they are able.  
I do think that the Catechisms -- and they are among our Confessions! -- require some level of cognitive ability about what is going on.  Hardly a Th.D., but at least "This is a special meal with Jesus."  I respect those who disagree, and look to the Orthodox and other traditions, but I think we do need to take our Lutheran Confessions seriously.
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Baptism and Eucharist
« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2005, 10:43:18 AM »
Besides our confessions, I think that we need to take scriptures and early church documents seriously. Communion was seen as an act that united the people of God, regardless of age.

The eucharistic prayer in the Didache has the wonderful image of the grains of wheat that were scatted on the hillside have come together in one loaf, so also we, who have been scatted, have been gathered into one body.

Our Lutheran emphasis on the personal forgiveness of sins is absent in most of the biblical references.

In addition, when "for you" is used in the biblical words of institution, "you" is plural. The bread/body and wine/blood is given for y'all. How might that change our understanding of the catechisms? For those who know German or Latin, is the "you" in the original language singular or plural?

How does it affect our understanding if we believe that these elements are give by Christ to us, rather than to just me? It is a salvific meal for us together.
Brian Stoffregen
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Gladfelteri

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Re: Baptism and Eucharist
« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2005, 05:54:33 PM »
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In short, for von Schenk, confirmation was a helpful period of instruction, but Baptism was the sine non qua of Eucharistic reception (except in the case of the unborn!!!)
As is the case for the Eastern Church.

Eric_Bodenstab

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Re: Baptism and Eucharist
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2005, 06:58:36 AM »
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For those who know German or Latin, is the "you" in the original language singular or plural?

In the 1906 Heilige Schrift from Concordia, St. Louis, Matthew 26:27 has the phrase "alle daraus" (all of you), Luke 22:20 has "euch" (each of you), and 1 Corinthians 23:24 has "euch".

The Confessions don't ignore the communal aspect of Communion, which is why private celebrations of the mass are frowned upon, but the point of the Small Catechism is to give Lutherans a grasp on the faith of the individual so they can move on to the Large Catechism and then to the rest of the Confessions.

While it is interesting to look at the Early Church Fathers and the traditions of other denominations and branches of Christianity, none of them are called by Lutherans the right interpretation of Scripture nor subscribed to by our leaders. While we may find some truth to help our understandings once we have dealt with the Confessions, to start by looking outside of the Scriptures, Creeds, and Confessions smacks of comparison which breed sins.
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Brian_McClinton

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Re: Baptism and Eucharist
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2005, 12:57:50 PM »
This may be beside the point, but it is so important to find opportunities for education on the sacramants.  Recently, I had a conversation with a family member who was having difficulties in her church. Not Lutheran, but my point is that there may be some similarities. I do think some clergy in the ELCA display an adiaphoric stance in regard to the sacraments.....  UGH!

Young families were having difficulty with their children during communion because the toddlers were not allowed to partake.  Sooooo, the families came up with the idea that during the time, the children can go over to the other side of the church AND HAVE A GRAPE!!!!

I told my relative that if I was the pastor, this would be the perfect time, a teaching moment, to explain the sacraments.  The sermon the next Sunday would be about the sacrament and what our faith believes.  It does not take too long for people to forget.

The more teaching points, the more possiblities they may say "Now I get it".  It can get exhausting though.....

Brian McClinton


Dennis

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Re: Baptism and Eucharist
« Reply #50 on: September 15, 2005, 04:04:49 PM »
Oh, yes, the grape thing....

I know of at least one church that did that, may even still be doing it, out in the Rocky Mountain west.  If kids can understand a grape, why can't they understand bread and wine.

Interesting side question:  If the bowl of grapes is on the altar during the Great Thanksgiving, and if wine is made from grapes, do the grapes actually become a sign of the blood of Christ.

I also have heard of at least one Baptist church where, on occasion, the congregation receives actual grapes, rather than the little cups of grape juice.

I also remember another Lutheran church where, after the distribution of the sacrament, but before the Benediction and closing hymn, all of the non-communing children were called forward to consume the remaining elements.

So, what are these pastors thinking??

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Re: Baptism and Eucharist
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2005, 07:11:52 PM »
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Oh, yes, the grape thing....


So, what are these pastors thinking??


My phrasing of the question would eliminate the "what."
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS