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Author Topic: ELDoNA?  (Read 10795 times)

Keith Falk

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ELDoNA?
« on: July 22, 2007, 12:48:40 AM »
I read what the acronym means... I went to their website... (www.eldona.org)  So rather than just directing me to their website, is anyone able to provide a bit of commentary on them?  They seem to be disaffected LC-MS folks... but I'm not sure on that.  Any help would be appreciated, so I can better understand their answers to the interview questions!
Rev. Keith Falk, STS
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Dave_Poedel

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2007, 01:23:08 AM »
That's what it looks like to me too. There have been a fair number of these "associations" that have popped up over the years, and most of them attract a couple of pastors and then function doing whatever they do.  Most issue some sort of epistle, and if someone can raise some money, they publish a newsletter.  Most have not grown beyond their start.  Frankly, I had never heard of these "North American" diocese guys until Peter's posting that mentioned them.Interesting is that some sites list them as a Lutheran body....I wonder if their dual affiliation constitutes "unionism" <grin>

As to other groups that have formed over the years, and NOT at all in the same category as ELDoNA at all, from my own probably flawed analysis, would be the Higher Things guys and the guys who came up with the journal "Logia". I have been a long time subcriber to Logia and, while not agreeing with tone sometimes evident, find it to be a good journal which has a very definite point of view within Confessional Lutheranism. They seem to have found a bit more of a niche and have expanded beyond their beginnings. 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 01:14:41 PM by Dave Poedel, STS »

janielou13

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2007, 06:57:16 PM »
Unionism is OK,,,,, sinful unionism is quite another,,,,,,, doesn't one of the Ten Words speak to that ?? 8>)

ptmccain

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2007, 07:02:42 PM »
Some exceptions, from my own probably flawed analysis, would be ... the guys who came up with the journal "Logia".

I've got to correct a serious misimpression that your comment may have given Dave. LOGIA was started by "some guys" who were intentionally not doing anything politicaIt is no more interested in creating new little splinter groups than Lutheran Forum is. It has nothing to do with Synodical politics or associations. The contributing editors to LOGIA include Synodical district presidents, former Synodical Vice Presidents, Wisconsin Synod professors, ELCA pastors, a lot of LCMS types, including professors at both of our seminaries. I know all about LOGIA, because I happen to be one of "the guys" who "came up" with the journal LOGIA. It has been going strong, four times a year, offering the largest independent Lutheran theological journal for nearly fifteen years now. By largest, I mean sheer volume of content in each issue. You get your money's worth from this journal, to be sure. Anyone who reads "Lutheran Forum" owes it to himself/herself to read LOGIA. http://www.logia.org
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 06:52:23 AM by ptmccain »

Dave Benke

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2007, 10:26:10 PM »
ELDoNA literally swept into the LCMS convention.  If you're into science fiction movies, the ELDoNA crew was reminiscent of the opponents of Bruce Willis in "The Fifth Element," the main diocesan leader wafting through the hallways in a great coat or frock of some kind and the others buzzing around waiting for command-tones.  It was really cool to watch, in that kitschy scary way.  I hope I had something to do with them doing what they're doing.

As to Logia, outside of a reasonable amount of potshotting at yours truly and the usual WELS/ELSian fellowship gnesio-stridency, what is there possibly not to enjoy from Norman Nagel or Leonard Klein, among others?

Dave Benke

peter_speckhard

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2007, 10:49:49 PM »
ELDoNA literally swept into the LCMS convention.  If you're into science fiction movies, the ELDoNA crew was reminiscent of the opponents of Bruce Willis in "The Fifth Element," the main diocesan leader wafting through the hallways in a great coat or frock of some kind and the others buzzing around waiting for command-tones.  It was really cool to watch, in that kitschy scary way.  I hope I had something to do with them doing what they're doing.
Dave Benke
Dave, rest assured you did. And whatever else you may have on them, you'll never be able to dress your part as well as they did theirs, short of actually dressing as a priest of Asherah. I actually have a lot of sympathy for at least some of the ELDoNA outlook, but the thing is, they give the impression that they all fancy themselves Athanasius contra mundum, which would be fine except I can't really imagine any context in which they wouldn't eventually be found playing that role anyway. That takes some of the oomph out of their bold confession. If the LCMS soudly rejected Kieschnick and did everything ELDoNA wanted, in a ten years they'd be in a state of confession against the LCMS again for some other reason, as Athanasius contra mundum. I could be wrong about that, but they certainly give that impression. That having been said, I still think they have some good points worth considering. 

Dave_Poedel

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2007, 02:05:32 AM »
ELDoNA literally swept into the LCMS convention. If you're into science fiction movies, the ELDoNA crew was reminiscent of the opponents of Bruce Willis in "The Fifth Element," the main diocesan leader wafting through the hallways in a great coat or frock of some kind and the others buzzing around waiting for command-tones. It was really cool to watch, in that kitschy scary way. I hope I had something to do with them doing what they're doing.

As to Logia, outside of a reasonable amount of potshotting at yours truly and the usual WELS/ELSian fellowship gnesio-stridency, what is there possibly not to enjoy from Norman Nagel or Leonard Klein, among others?

Dave Benke

Oh, do tell more.  Are you serious?  I have an image of this scene in my mind and it sounds hilarious.

Grabauski

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2007, 10:43:53 AM »
Quote
I read what the acronym means... I went to their website... (www.eldona.org)  So rather than just directing me to their website, is anyone able to provide a bit of commentary on them?

Considering the 'answers' that have followed your request (the making of assertions based on having no clue about the history of either Logia or Higher Things or the relationship/lack thereof between them, and commentary by an LCMS 'bishop' poking at them for their wearing of churchly garb), I think one can easily see that reading their website is a far better idea than asking those who are ignorant of them to comment on them.

Quote
They seem to be disaffected LC-MS folks... but I'm not sure on that.  Any help would be appreciated, so I can better understand their answers to the interview questions!

The diocese consists of those who recognized that the LCMS had strayed, which necessitated (by reckoning of their conscience) their leaving--most after the 2004 convention, some earlier--and who subsequently recognized that fellowship existed between them. At present, a number of LCMS, ELS, WELS, etc., pastors are making inquiry of them.

Did Dave Benke play a role in their leaving the LCMS? It is best to consider this in tems of a dog biting a neighborhood kid and the owner of that dog. His biting the kid (by praying for the salvation of people already dead, by communing at an ELCA church, etc., etc.) is not really the reason that the owner is punished, but the fact that a) the dog already had a history of biting, and b) the owner blatantly said that it never was going to do anything about his biting, so that he would be able to treat the kids obnoxiously in the future, as well. That, among other things, was part of the 'too much' they had experienced in the LCMS.

Yet, it was so much more than Dave Benke. It was the continued practice of open communion being tolerated (i.e., restudied ad aeternum), the continued violation of Augustana XIV, etc.

Yet, it was more than that, too: it was the LCMS 'system'--Walther's experiment fallen into horrible abuse that led to such goings on. Thus, the formation of a system that is not like the American 'synods', nor yet like the state church episcopacies...a system in which there is no coercive power exercised over congregations, but in which the Superintendent's/Bishop's relationship is with the pastors and not with the parishes.

But now I have spoken too far for one who is not a member and, thus, has no standing so to speak; for authoritative answers (including whatever style tips Pres. Benke needs), I would suggest you do the non-Missourian thing and simply ask them by using the contact link on their website.

As to Pr. Speckhard's speculation:

Quote
If the LCMS soudly rejected Kieschnick and did everything ELDoNA wanted, in a ten years they'd be in a state of confession against the LCMS again for some other reason

I would say that the time spent serving LCMS congregations by those involved would contradict that. Their leaving was not capriciousness but conviction, not by snap judgment, but by long consideration...not simply over these most recent issues, but because of some long-standing ones, as well. I do not think it inappropriate to ask that others not take a 'worst construction' approach to this new body (or to the ACLC, the OLCCIC, and so on) simply because of the history of the nanosynods (so that now we can debate who came up with that term) that have left Missouri in the past, etc. This is, imo, a different thing altogether, something unlike the others I have seen, at least. At any rate, I would think that we could all find something better to do than to a) criticize their clothing and b) sin against both the equal members and the one elected first among equals by saying that the former were "buzzing around waiting for command-tones"...but, of course, that is the sort of comment one has learned to expect from the Rev. Benke and his cohorts, who need have no contact with a person or group before making such comments about them.

EJG

Grabauski

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2007, 10:59:22 AM »
BTW, wrt:

Quote
I actually have a lot of sympathy for at least some of the ELDoNA outlook, but the thing is, they give the impression that they all fancy themselves Athanasius contra mundum, which would be fine except I can't really imagine any context in which they wouldn't eventually be found playing that role anyway. That takes some of the oomph out of their bold confession.

I think that saying such a thing after one conversation is pretty rash. Perhaps understanding the background of that one conversation might help:

1) I had not actually gotten around to telling them that I had suggested that you interview them. It hadn't dawned on me that you might be up that quickly, and everyone was just sitting for a second before leaving for supper when you came in.

2) Considering that they made no attempt to 'assert' themselves, but were merely present and available for conversation/consolation of those whom the were fairly certain would be weary from 'losing', being given the opportunity to speak to the issues that you presented in the short time they could spend led to a very direct and passionate speaking to such things as they were given opportunity to address.

I think, too, that the passion (and your lack of convention background) may have blocked your view of the humor in what they said; knowing them and knowing their background, they were simply having a good time with you while staying focused on what needed to be said--especially their expression of concern for the pastors who followed the dissent process to 'the end' only to find that 'the end' was 'being ignored'. This is by no means a group that has been tilting at windmills; they are, to a man, gentle pastors who would have been content to serve their parishes quietly and without controversy, had not the rising tide of false teaching and practice in Missouri made it necessary for them to speak out.

Fwiw,

EJG


Daniel L. Gard

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2007, 12:32:23 PM »
  I hope I had something to do with them doing what they're doing.

Dave Benke

Dave,

Are you sure you meant to say this? I want to put the best construction on this.  Please help me to understand how any of us can be happy over schism.  It was Jesus' prayer that we might be one.  I hope and pray that you in your office and all of us whatever our station life would pray and work for the end to division in the Body of Christ. Blessings!
"We believe, teach, and confess that the only rule and guiding principle according to which all teachings and teachers are to be evaluated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic writings of the Old and New Testaments alone." (FC Ep Intro:1)

peter_speckhard

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2007, 12:53:06 PM »
BTW, wrt:

Quote
I actually have a lot of sympathy for at least some of the ELDoNA outlook, but the thing is, they give the impression that they all fancy themselves Athanasius contra mundum, which would be fine except I can't really imagine any context in which they wouldn't eventually be found playing that role anyway. That takes some of the oomph out of their bold confession.

I think that saying such a thing after one conversation is pretty rash. Perhaps understanding the background of that one conversation might help:

1) I had not actually gotten around to telling them that I had suggested that you interview them. It hadn't dawned on me that you might be up that quickly, and everyone was just sitting for a second before leaving for supper when you came in.

2) Considering that they made no attempt to 'assert' themselves, but were merely present and available for conversation/consolation of those whom the were fairly certain would be weary from 'losing', being given the opportunity to speak to the issues that you presented in the short time they could spend led to a very direct and passionate speaking to such things as they were given opportunity to address.

I think, too, that the passion (and your lack of convention background) may have blocked your view of the humor in what they said; knowing them and knowing their background, they were simply having a good time with you while staying focused on what needed to be said--especially their expression of concern for the pastors who followed the dissent process to 'the end' only to find that 'the end' was 'being ignored'. This is by no means a group that has been tilting at windmills; they are, to a man, gentle pastors who would have been content to serve their parishes quietly and without controversy, had not the rising tide of false teaching and practice in Missouri made it necessary for them to speak out.

Fwiw,

EJG
Hey, I wasn't trying to be rash, I was just sharing what I called an impression, and was very up front in these threads that the impression was based on that interview. So I think everyone who regularly reads this forum was up to speed, and of course the forum is also a good place for you to correct misunderstandings. And, yes, I could tell that a lot of it was just you guys having fun and engaging in banter, as when you (forgive me if it was one of the others present, I didn't write down the names to go with the faces and I'd never met any of you before) began by saying "I have one side to my personality-evil" and everyone laughed. I tried to engage at a similar level when the person speaking explained that he always began conversations with new acquaintances like this in order to lower expectations as far as possible, and I merely responded, "Well done," which was supposed to be humorous but only garnered a few smiles. I'm pretty confident that my reports of your answers have fairly represented the substance of that interview.   

Dave_Poedel

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2007, 01:11:39 PM »
I am confused: did the ELDoNA guys leave the LCMS?  If so, that makes their website and answers to Peter's interview more understandable to me.  If they left the LCMS, what were they doing at the Convention? If they are in the LCMS, why?

janielou13

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2007, 02:45:15 PM »
"If they left the LCMS," what were they doing at the Convention?"

Yes they have left Mother Mo,,,,,, but their take might be that they were pushed out.

",,,,,,,what were they doing at the Convention?"

Moths to the flame ?

Grabauski

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2007, 02:52:44 PM »
Quote
Hey, I wasn't trying to be rash, I was just sharing what I called an impression, and was very up front in these threads that the impression was based on that interview.

I'm sorry; my words appeared far harsher than I intended.

Quote
And, yes, I could tell that a lot of it was just you guys having fun and engaging in banter, as when you (forgive me if it was one of the others present, I didn't write down the names to go with the faces and I'd never met any of you before) began by saying "I have one side to my personality-evil" and everyone laughed.

That might have been me.

Quote
I tried to engage at a similar level when the person speaking explained that he always began conversations with new acquaintances like this in order to lower expectations as far as possible, and I merely responded, "Well done," which was supposed to be humorous but only garnered a few smiles.

That definitely was me. I thought your response was funny, though it would have been less funny if I openly showed it; if the ELDoNA guys didn't react to the humor, it may just have been a function of them being 'protective' of me. That is a distinguishing feature of those in ELDoNA, imo: they actively seek to make sure that people are taken care of...to provide what they experienced the LCMS not providing.

Quote
I'm pretty confident that my reports of your answers have fairly represented the substance of that interview.  

I agree with that statement, and I hope that my words did not lead anyone to believe otherwise.

EJG

Grabauski

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Re: ELDoNA?
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2007, 02:59:24 PM »
Quote
I am confused: did the ELDoNA guys leave the LCMS?  If so, that makes their website and answers to Peter's interview more understandable to me.?

Yes.

Quote
If they left the LCMS, what were they doing at the Convention?

Just because you're not in a body, that doesn't mean that you aren't concerned about it. ELDoNA had representatives at the ACLC/OLCCIC conference, perhaps at the ELS convention, will have them at the meeting of The Augustana Ministerium, etc. Among other things, they sought to support those who have attempted to be heard and have been 'thrown away' by the LCMS.

EJG

 

anything