Thursday morning: apologies and offenses

[Richard Johnson]

The Assembly began with breakfast and “table talk,” small group discussion around tables, and then they convened in plenary

As the public session began, two speakers expressed great concern that following the adoption of the social statement yesterday, there was loud applause and cheers. It was noted that our rules declare this kind of response to be out of order, and the PB did nothing to call the assembly to order. The cheers were hurtful to those whose “bound conscience” were sorely wounded. The PB agreed, and apologized for his mistake.

Kirsten --- (didn’t get her name or synod) urged support for the ministry changes, saying she is excited at the opportunity to witness for Jesus. Pr. Ryan Mills, NTx/LA. I live and serve within the Episcopal diocese of Ft. Worth, and I’ve seen this train wreck before. The fall out in that diocese of the Episcopal church’s ministry decisions has been terrible, and I do not want us to see this in our church. We must not separate ourselves from the church catholic. Pastoral practice needs latitude, but the truth must not be compromised.  Pr. Paul Tideman, St. Paul Synod. I hear the voices of those who were hurt yesterday, and I pray for them. I had twin brothers, both gay; one drank himself to death at 31, I think because he could not believe that God loved him. Supporting the rostering of gay and lesbian persons will be a sign, role models in the church who are like them.

John Prabhakar, N. IL. The ELCA encouraged me to read the Bible through the Book of Faith initiative. I did that. I have come to a different conclusion than the task force. I understand the pain and anguish of those in same sex relationships; I wish I could support their rostering, but I cannot in good conscience. Pr. Jay McDivitt, Rocky Mtn. Ten years ago I spoke to the CWA on behalf of the Lutheran Youth Organization, urging them to change our ministry policies. Four years ago I was one of those recalcitrant people who stood in front of the assembly in Orlando. I’m aware that if we pass these, many among us will be devastated. They will wrestle with the same question we have wrestled with for 20 years: should I go or should I stay? Please stay. We need each other.

Pr. Terri Stagner-Collier, SE Synod. Many compare this issue to ordination of women or of divorced people. As a divorced woman pastor, I do not believe these are comparable. As to women, there are many passages that speak positively about the leadership roles of women; there are no such passages relative to homosexuality. As to divorce, I am humbly forgiven of my sin. In no way have I tried to define my sin as a good. I agree the passages speaking against homosexuality can be interpreted in a way that sees them as irrelevant to contemporary issues; but the clear witness of Scripture is that God made man and woman for each other.

Bp. Craig Johnson, Minneapolis. Our synod became a Reconciling Synod in the 1990’s, and we’ve consistently voted for change. But what compels me to vote for change is Holy Scripture. Jesus broke down walls of class and status. The walls of prejudice, of bigotry, came tumbling down. We have a wall today between the baptized; will we break it down?
Roy Gibbs, NW OH; it was obvious in our table discussion that we have a “Spirit” problem. Is the Holy Spirit calling us to affirm the life choices of our gay/lesbian brothers and sisters. But if the Holy Spirit is speaking to us, why is the Holy Spirit not speaking to our brothers and sisters in the Roman Catholic, United Methodist, Orthodox, Presbyterian churches? Are they deaf to the Spirit, and we can hear what no one else can hear? We believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, and the vast majority of Christians worldwide would not consider what we are being asked to do today.

PB then called on members of the resource panel to respond to some written questions that arose from the table conversation.

Q: What will happen to congregations whose “bound conscience” will not permit them to accept GLBT clergy?
A: (Timothy Wengert) It is the responsibility of leadership to respect their conscience; it is incumbent upon those congregations to be clear about what their conscience requires. Generally the answer is they will have freedom to do what their conscience requires. (Stanley Olson) If these are adopted, policies will have to be developed with attention to differences of opinion and respect of the bound conscience. No one will be required to act contrary to their consciences.

Pr. Earl Janssen, DE-MD synod. On internship I had an experience that has shaped my ministry. I was visiting a man whose wife was dying; he was reliving his life, including some regrets. He believed that he had killed innocent people in WWII. Same week I visited a woman, German, who had seen her sister die in the bombing of Berlin. I asked her how she could be in the same church with a man who might have been the one who killed her sister. “In Christ he is my brother,” she replied. This really is no different.  Pr. Janice Campbell, SW Tex. I do not want you to be misled. This is not about judging others. The church has no right to do that. But it does have the right to criticize certain actions that diminish and impoverish life. Mothers have been doing this for year, as have teachers. When a mother disciplines her child, it does not mean she does not love the child, but that she does.


Allison Guttu, Metro NY. Urge you to vote in favor. Many point to Anglican communion as a model for what is happening. But communion means something different to Anglicans than to Lutherans. Lutheran communion is defined solely by Word and Sacrament, not by relationship to another church. Jim Borowick, Minneapolis. I’d like to read a message from the pastor of the Oromo congregation here in Minneapolis. (Read message: Missionaries taught us the Bible is the Word of God. Today their descendants are telling us the Bible is not to be read faithfully, but to be changed. Am I to accept church has a new revelation from God? That God is imperfect, he has gained new insight? Who is setting moral standards for the church? The ELCA wants to bring its witness to people of color. You say you want ethnic diversity, but you pay no attention to us. We have been praying that these recommendations fail.)

Resource mic: David Balch, PLTS. I’m an example of the mission of the ELCA. I was not born in the Lutheran church. I became a Lutheran because I was taught that neither Paul nor Luther have a fundamentalist understanding of Scripture. There is a distinction between the gospel and Scripture. My mother was raised with this fundamentalist approach, and her whole life she never spoke in church. I would say she was imprisoned by her approach.

Pr. Michael Toomey, Eastern ND. We want to be an evangelical church, taking this dying denomination and let it become an evangelical outreach, taking the gospel to the poorest of the poor (victims of malaria, AIDS). To get that vision we need focus and momentum. The ministry recommendations take us away from that focus. They do not lead us in the direction we want to go. Pr. Mark Lepper, Minneapolis. What is happening reminds me of an animated movie where two sisters go to the pound to pick out a dog, and they come home with this crazy little alien. One sister wants to take him back, the other says, No, he belongs to us now. Right now in the ELCA we are leaving people behind, saying “You are not what we were expecting, we don’t want you.” We need to say “family means no one gets left behind.”

Q: What messages has the ELCA received from ecumenical partners?
A: (McCoid) Yesterday I shared with you in general where our ecumenical partnering are. Concerning rostering, the UCC has a long-time practice of doing this. Episcopal Church as well. Moravian, Presbyterian, Reformed, UMC, Roman Catholic, Orthodox, do not. If we make changes, there will be differences in our relationships with some of our partners. (Padilla) We have received messages from Hong Kong, Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Tanzania asking us not to take such actions. Also from the Silesian church, and the churches in the Baltics. (Rossing) Important to put this in context. LWF is in the midst of a five year process called “marriage, family, human sexuality.” Churches of LWF are not of one mind. Scandinavian and German churches have already taken steps to move further than the ELCA contemplates moving. We don’t follow other churches on other matters; e.g., some of our partner churches do not ordain women or divorced men.

Gary Diers, Minneapolis. I hear continually that these changes should not be church-dividing. (Told a folksy anecdote that need not be repeated here.) Miguel Hernandez, Rocky Mtn.  God has led me on a journey to open my eyes to see that Christ can live in the lives of gay people. Mary Howe, N. IL. How can ELCA compare a few years of study with over 2000 years of Christian tradition? The cross is not a rabbit’s food to be rubbed like a warm fuzzy. God gave us guidelines to live by. The purpose of the law is prepare us and point us to the gospel.

After the time for committee of the whole was extended for 15 minutes, speaking continued. Jan Ruud SW Wash. What inspires me about these proposals is the impact I believe it will have on the mission of the church. There are many programs in my congregation that strongly depend on gay and lesbian people in committed relationships. They are serving and strengthening our ministry. There are others in the congregation who would have voted against these proposals, and yet in their graciousness they find ways to work together with gays and lesbians in our congregations. Pr. Joel Benson, SW PA. I did not plan to go to the table conversation this morning, but I went, and I’m glad. The Biblical story often told this week is the woman to whom Jesus says “Neither to I condemn you,” but we don’t seem to go on to the rest, “Go and sin no more.” We don’t have to guess what our global partners are going to say; Archbishop of Canterbury has told Episcopal Church they will be second class citizens in the Anglican Communion. We have become idolatrous, so focused on this one issue.

Meredith Hendricks, Southeastern. I found the Lutheran church more than 30 years ago and it immediately became my home. A few years ago I found myself in a situation where I was not being fed spiritually in my church. One Good Friday my husband and I found ourselves in a church in downtown Atlanta; after the service, we had tears. We moved our membership to this church. Pastor was Bradley Schmeling . . . full of the spirit. How can you deny what is going on at St. John’s? David Olsen, St. Paul: LWF is dedicated to Lutheran unity, but that is about to be dissolved. Ten years ago this assembly went into a full communion agreement with the Episcopal Church. A unity attempt, but it has caused disunity within both the ELCA and the Episcopal Church. For the sake of Lutheran unity, we must vote against these resolutions.

Resource panel: Q What does it mean to have a publicly accountable relationship? We would anticipate the highest level of civil recognition available, whether that be marriage, civil unions, etc. (Phil Harris, general counsel) Churches occupy unique position. Churches enjoy religious liberty, and that extends to relationship between church and pastors. Uniformly courts have protected the rights of churches to set standards.  Q What happens to ELCA message on “Sexuality, Some Common Convictions” (Rebecca Larson) According to our procedures, social statements are the foundational social teachings of the church. The social statement would take precedence of the earlier “message” from the church council. Would also take precedence over the 2005 conference of bishops statement.

Larry Struve, Sierra Pacific. There are a number of people here who are “in the middle.” As we look at the resolutions, we would like clarification on resolution 3, which we see as key. It is only if number 3 is in place that some of us would be willing to vote on 1 and 2. PB: They are before you in the order they appear, but the body has the right to decide how to consider them. Thus ended the committee of the whole.

There was a good bit of anger among some on the “traditionalist” side that the “resource people” were given a pretty good block of time during this supposed “open discussion” of the ministry recommendations. The resource people, largely from the task force and the churchwide staff, were perceived (rightly, in my view) as being advocates for the proposed changes, and were generally not held to their time limit by the PB. Barbara Rossing’s comments, for instance, was essentially a rebuttal to the answer given to the questions about the reactions of our ecumenical and global partners.

VP Pena was given the chair, where he began the process for balloting for Church Council and other churchwide units. Ballots were distributed, with instructions to fill them out over the lunch break and deposit them by the deadline into the ballot boxes.

[jpetty]

Before this thread heats up, I want to thank Pastor Johnson for his excellent reports.

[Kurt Weinelt]

Before this thread heats up, I want to thank Pastor Johnson for his excellent reports.

Ditto that.  As painful as it is the read of the CWA proceedings, it must be exponentially more painful to have to observe it and be the harbinger of such bad news.

[James Gustafson]

First I want to thank Richard Johnson for these posts, I know a great deal of work, but it's useful and appreciated.  I never posted here before, but I've been following the events closely, from the outside.

I have not been a Lutheran as long as the other posters here, but I have been a Christian since I was 16 years old, some twenty nine years ago.  I have regularly attended Pentecostal, Baptist and Non-Denominational churches, or no churches at all for long periods of time.  I have visited with respect Methodist, Anglican and Catholic services, I have attended large and very small churches, but I have never ‘joined’ a church membership of any kind due to one theological reason or another (but I was willing to share my money with them via donations and tithes regardless of actual membership).  But for one reason or another, such as legalism in Pentecostal churches (no dancing or drinking of any kind etc.,), or a seeming lack of appreciation for the sacraments Christ gave us (Baptists and non-denominational churches calling the Lord’s supper and water Baptism just a “memorial” service etc.,) and theological differences with scriptural interpretation such as the difference Lutherans have with Roman Catholics today and historically. 

God has blessed me with a unshakable faith in Jesus Christ, regardless of my ability to live the life of sanctification through my life choices or not.  But I also have a strong curiosity to find out what other people believe.  For the sake of knowledge, and material for debate and to know ‘the other side”, I’ve read the Qur’an, I’ve tried to read the Book of Mormon (oh boy, couldn’t finish that one) and an endless curiosity of the earliest Christian teachings and writings from the earliest NT translations, from the Didache to Apocryphal works and letters of the earliest church forefathers via Biblical Archaeology and English translations of ancient works.

But last year I read The Genius of Luther's Theology: A Wittenberg Way of Thinking for the Contemporary Church, by Robert Kolb, Charles P. Arand, and then I began reading the Book of Concord for the first time.  I was stunned to find out that I was not alone in what I thought was my singular way of reading scripture and interpreting meaning from the ancient words of the Bible. So I found a local Lutheran church that I had passed by a thousand times before, and I tried it with my wife, then I brought my children.   Then six months later I joined the first church body I’ve ever joined in my life, astounding my extended family and Christian friends to no end, causing a spark of interest in them to find out what could have caused me, of all people, to submit my theological stubbornness to any singular Church interpretation.

And it just so happens that it is a conservative church in the ELCA.  And I live near the convention this year, getting soaked in the very rain that broke the cross off the ELCA church steeple.

I have to ask, collectively, do ELCA Lutherans even know their own theology?  I know the pastors of the church I’ve joined does, but how could the ELCA come to this ‘answer’ that they have, it is clearly not based on scripture or the revelation of Christ via tradition...  I’m embarrassed and ashamed, but am reminded of several verses, two I will quote.
 
1 Corinthians 5:11 (ESV)
11But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

2 Thessalonians 3:13-15 (ESV)
As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good.  If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.  Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

[Just_Here_For_CWA]

Thanks, James. BTW, cool avatar. Where did you get it?

[Charles_Austin]

Eric! I thought you bounced yourself. (Or were bounced.) Try not to hit us too hard this afternoon, we've got enough on our plates.

[Glen Piper]

Good to see you still around, Eric! 

[James Gustafson]

Thanks, James. BTW, cool avatar. Where did you get it?

I created it.  It's a collection of three different ancient Christian signs I've seen, graffiti and carvings.

[Just_Here_For_CWA]

Could I use it for my Twitter avatar, please, please, pretty please.

[Just_Here_For_CWA]

Thanks, Glen. See you at Twitter.

Guys, we are chillin over at FB. No censorship there. Mainly it is not needed because we're all friends and for some reason all my liberal friends never say anything besides taking quizes about what state they are...

[James Gustafson]

Could I use it for my Twitter avatar, please, please, pretty please.

I would be honored.  What good is Christian graffiti if it isn't copied and used somewhere else

[Just_Here_For_CWA]

I ain't hitting hard, Charles. You want to kiss and make up?

[vicarbob]

watch it Eric....you may want to stay once you've planted one on Charles

[Greg M. Johnson]

Q: What will happen to congregations whose “bound conscience” will not permit them to accept GLBT clergy?
A: (Timothy Wengert) It is the responsibility of leadership to respect their conscience; it is incumbent upon those congregations to be clear about what their conscience requires. Generally the answer is they will have freedom to do what their conscience requires. (Stanley Olson) If these are adopted, policies will have to be developed with attention to differences of opinion and respect of the bound conscience. No one will be required to act contrary to their consciences.

I think that there are many middle-of-the-road congregations/ pastors who thought that they could just hold their breath and let the wave pass over them.  But actually implementing the above suggestion I believe will tear them apart.   It's one thing to have your congregational delegates to split their votes at a synod assembly plenary--maybe only a half dozen know about it, and only half of them have anything to grumble about.   It's another thing to come up with a policy that allows it to "be clear" to the outside world.    

When my congregational president when to a MNYSA about ten years ago, he referred to the "70% of us in the middle on the middle" on the sexuality issue. I will wager, that as congregations go, that there are probably 15% who were ready yesterday to implement these policies, and 15% who already drew up the separation paperwork.  The rest will have tearful conflict.

[Padre Dave, STS]

First I want to thank Richard Johnson for these posts, I know a great deal of work, but it's useful and appreciated.  I never posted here before, but I've been following the events closely, from the outside.

I have not been a Lutheran as long as the other posters here, but I have been a Christian since I was 16 years old, some twenty nine years ago.  I have regularly attended Pentecostal, Baptist and Non-Denominational churches, or no churches at all for long periods of time.  I have visited with respect Methodist, Anglican and Catholic services, I have attended large and very small churches, but I have never ‘joined’ a church membership of any kind due to one theological reason or another (but I was willing to share my money with them via donations and tithes regardless of actual membership).  But for one reason or another, such as legalism in Pentecostal churches (no dancing or drinking of any kind etc.,), or a seeming lack of appreciation for the sacraments Christ gave us (Baptists and non-denominational churches calling the Lord’s supper and water Baptism just a “memorial” service etc.,) and theological differences with scriptural interpretation such as the difference Lutherans have with Roman Catholics today and historically. 

God has blessed me with a unshakable faith in Jesus Christ, regardless of my ability to live the life of sanctification through my life choices or not.  But I also have a strong curiosity to find out what other people believe.  For the sake of knowledge, and material for debate and to know ‘the other side”, I’ve read the Qur’an, I’ve tried to read the Book of Mormon (oh boy, couldn’t finish that one) and an endless curiosity of the earliest Christian teachings and writings from the earliest NT translations, from the Didache to Apocryphal works and letters of the earliest church forefathers via Biblical Archaeology and English translations of ancient works.

But last year I read The Genius of Luther's Theology: A Wittenberg Way of Thinking for the Contemporary Church, by Robert Kolb, Charles P. Arand, and then I began reading the Book of Concord for the first time.  I was stunned to find out that I was not alone in what I thought was my singular way of reading scripture and interpreting meaning from the ancient words of the Bible. So I found a local Lutheran church that I had passed by a thousand times before, and I tried it with my wife, then I brought my children.   Then six months later I joined the first church body I’ve ever joined in my life, astounding my extended family and Christian friends to no end, causing a spark of interest in them to find out what could have caused me, of all people, to submit my theological stubbornness to any singular Church interpretation.

And it just so happens that it is a conservative church in the ELCA.  And I live near the convention this year, getting soaked in the very rain that broke the cross off the ELCA church steeple.

I have to ask, collectively, do ELCA Lutherans even know their own theology?  I know the pastors of the church I’ve joined does, but how could the ELCA come to this ‘answer’ that they have, it is clearly not based on scripture or the revelation of Christ via tradition...  I’m embarrassed and ashamed, but am reminded of several verses, two I will quote.
 
1 Corinthians 5:11 (ESV)
11But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

2 Thessalonians 3:13-15 (ESV)
As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good.  If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.  Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

James:

Thanks for sharing your journey with us here.  Indeed, I have trouble believing that those who know their Lutheran theology could make the decisions made in Minneapolis this week.  I am thankful that you have found a faithful congregation and I pray that the craziness (my opinion) going on in your town do not lead you to believe that your journey and destination have been in vain.  Please realize that a large number of Lutherans hold the convictions that you share in your post, many in the ELCA, probably many more in the LCMS.

Thanks for sharing, again, and God's peace be with you and your family.