Asian Lutherans respond

[Richard Johnson]

In a recent article posted at http://www.alpb.org/forum/index.php?topic=2138.0, I argued:

A similar reaction will almost certainly take place within the global Lutheran community, and what we have seen happening in the Anglican communion will be replicated among the churches of the Lutheran World Federation. Already leaders of some LWF churches have been in quiet conversation with officials of the Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod, discussing the possibility of a new international organization that could become a home for those Lutherans, particularly in the global south, unwilling to “journey faithfully together” with an ELCA they believe has gone off the rails. This can only become extremely embarrassing to Mark Hanson, who currently serves as president of LWF as well as presiding bishop of the ELCA.

Evidence of this reaction is contained in a July 27 letter to Bishop Mark Hanson from Nicholas Tai, bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Hong Kong, a copy of which was, so to speak, tossed over my transom. The text follows:

Dear Bishop Hanson and Colleagues in ministry,
Grace and peace be with you from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Thank you for your letter dated July 6 and a call to prayers for the assembly of the ELCA in August. We do remember you in our prayers.
We are informed about the four recommendations presented by the task force on human sexuality. These recommendations will be discussed and may be accepted by the assembly in August. This matter is also of great importance for us in Asia. Of special concern is the question of homosexual union blessings and the acceptance of ordained clergy in homosexual relationships. A decision to accept these two practices would be a source of profound embarassment for the Luthern Church in Asia.
Such a decision on the part of the ELCA would affect our companion relationships, as homosexual practice is regarded as sin in the vast ecumenical community in Asia.
Secondly, we live in a morally and ethically shaped society. Non-Christians as well as Christians regard homosexual behavior as immoral. If the Church accepts and practicies homosexual behavior, it will be a big stumbling block for the vast majority of 1.3 billion Chinese, who need the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Thirdly, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Hong Kong regards homosexual practice as a sin and expressly states this in our discipline handbook. If the ELCA accepts such practices, it will be quite an embarassment to explain toour members why our companion Church allows something which goes against the clear biblical norms of our own Church. We as part of the Lutheran Communion could not escape the accusation that the Church is listening to the modern culture rather than to the clear teaching of the Word of God.
Prayers we need in this moment of crisis. We do not know the outcome, but as the sage in the Bible taught us, "The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord." (Prov. 21:1) We are in God's hand.
Thank you for your companionship and support in Mission!
Blessings
In Christ

Nicholas Tai, Bishop
Evangelical Lutheran Church of Hong Kong

I am told that a letter has also been received from the leaders of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Taiwan, endorsing Bp. Tai's sentiments.

What do you suppose are the odds that copies of these letters will be provided to voting members of the Churchwide Assembly? Well, maybe that's our vocation . . .

[Jeremy Loesch]

Thanks for posting the letters Richard.  Very interesting.  I found them to be forthright and that is very good.  And I hope that the letters are disseminated. 

Jeremy

[Padre Dave, STS]

When I read the above letter, I thought to myself "Well, DUH!", that's what we in the LCMS believe too.  I am thankful for the forthrightness of Bishop Tai.

[northdakota]

It is a good letter and should give the ELCA pause, since other similar letters have come (as I understand it) from other Lutheran synods in Europe and Africa. Pray that the ELCA doesn't become the ECUSA, although it appears that some synods within the ELCA will continue their policy of supporting same-sex unions no matter what happens in August (if one remembers that the NE synod and Greater Milwaukee Synod have been allowing this for some time now).

Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ!
Rob Buechler

[Brian Stoffregen]

What do you think the response would be if the ELCA wrote a letter to the LCMS or WELS stating that their continued refusal to ordain women continues to hinder cooperative efforts between our church bodies; that they are hindering their own Christian growth by failing to make use of the gifts God has given them; etc. etc. How serious would those church bodies take such a letter from our presiding bishop?

[northdakota]

What do you think the response would be if the ELCA wrote a letter to the LCMS or WELS stating that their continued refusal to ordain women continues to hinder cooperative efforts between our church bodies; that they are hindering their own Christian growth by failing to make use of the gifts God has given them; etc. etc. How serious would those church bodies take such a letter from our presiding bishop?

Answer: Not at all seriously, nor should they take it seriously for a variety of reasons.

However, that is not the same thing as what you find with this Asian letter. These are Lutherans you are in communion with at least with regards the LWF. That gives it more standing. The same with partner/sister synods who are making their pleas. So you need to compare apples to apples. I may not care what the neighbor down the street thinks, but I better care about what my wife thinks.

Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ!
Rob Buechler

[Brian Stoffregen]

I may not care what the neighbor down the street thinks, but I better care about what my wife thinks.

Caring about what your wife thinks is important. Believing that you have to change your convictions, opinions, and actions to always match what your wife wants is probably not a healthy relationship.

[northdakota]

I may not care what the neighbor down the street thinks, but I better care about what my wife thinks.

Caring about what your wife thinks is important. Believing that you have to change your convictions, opinions, and actions to always match what your wife wants is probably not a healthy relationship.

Unless of course your convictions violate the marriage vows. Then you better change. That seems to be what is going on, and that is what the other Lutheran partners are saying.

Peace in the Lord Jesus Christ!
Rob Buechler

[George Erdner]

I may not care what the neighbor down the street thinks, but I better care about what my wife thinks.

Caring about what your wife thinks is important. Believing that you have to change your convictions, opinions, and actions to always match what your wife wants is probably not a healthy relationship.

Yeah, but when she's right and you're wrong, then it's best for the one who is wrong to conform to what the one who is right thinks.

And I know, I know. Your response will be something along the lines of "But those of us who are wrong think we're right, so that makes us right even if we're wrong because we're right from our perspective which binds our conscience to defend our error as correctness". We've heard it time and time again, at least as often as your assertions that if people actually believe in there actually being absolute standards of right and wrong, there's something wrong with them.

In the relationship you describe, if the wife is right and the husband is wrong and it is about an important, fundamental issue, then any lack of health in their relationship is because of the husband's wrongness, and the path to restoring health in the relationship is for the one who is wrong to see the error of his ways and to repent.

[Charles_Austin]

If a man says something in a forest, and there is no woman around to hear, is he still wrong?

[northdakota]

If a man says something in a forest, and there is no woman around to hear, is he still wrong?

My wife says yes!

Peace in the Lord!
Rob Buechler

[Brian Stoffregen]

If a man says something in a forest, and there is no woman around to hear, is he still wrong?

My wife says yes!

But I always get the last word ........ "Yes, dear."

[Brian Stoffregen]

I may not care what the neighbor down the street thinks, but I better care about what my wife thinks.

Caring about what your wife thinks is important. Believing that you have to change your convictions, opinions, and actions to always match what your wife wants is probably not a healthy relationship.

Unless of course your convictions violate the marriage vows. Then you better change. That seems to be what is going on, and that is what the other Lutheran partners are saying.

Note that I used the word "always". There are certainly times when spouses need to change for the sake of the other. There are times when spouses need to express disagreement with the other. There are times when they need to stick to their guns for what they believe is right. There are times when repentance and forgiveness are called for.

[Charles_Austin]

Amd there are times when the disagreements - though "serious" and even "fundamental" or "critical" to one of the parties - are not such as to dissolve the marriage.

[The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS]

Note that I used the word "always".

Note that your inclusion of the word "always" is a typical stoffregenian red herring inserted into a discussion to turn the conversation away from the issue at hand.  The Bishop of our sister church in Hong Kong is not even hinting that we must agree lock-step on all theological matters.  Rather, he notes how both the Church and secular cultures have nearly universally judged homosexual behavior.

But I supposed great white fathers such as yourself and our Presiding Bishop know better...

kyrie eleison, spt+